Da Paul Challenge

[FMFCB]

So apart for the SFE, the main recon vehicles (in Europe) were the BA-64 and US M3A1 Scout car. Small numbers of T-70 and T-80 light tanks would have been passed on when tank units (brigades, regiments and separate battalions) went from a mix of light and medium to all medium. US T-48 aka SU-57 were sometimes included for fire support. Jeeps, Peeps, Gaz-64/67 (Soviet Jeep equivalent), motorcycles, sidecars and of course the long suffering horse were the main movers.

.

Paul
What is a T-80?
Thanks
Dave

 

[jrv]

What is a T-80?

The T-80 was an upgraded T-70 that was only produced in small numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-70

JR

 

[FMFCB]

Thanks JR
Dave

 

[jrv]

The printable paper model is available here: https://worldoftanks.ru/dcont/fb/file/0243_t_70_80_v10.pdf

It is part of a series of printable models available on the Russian World of Tanks site: http://worldoftanks.ru/ru/media/10/. Choose the Russian version, as some already have.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Paul
What is a T-80?
Thanks
Dave

As jrv pointed out it's a variant on the T-70 light tank.

The Soviets changed from a 1MT to a bigger 2MT. That obviously added weight so they upgraded the engine and ended up with a more lively tank. The hull was basically unchanged otherwise, so I would be inclined to add 1 MP to the T-70. Though the glacis armour was a tad thicker and the turret front somewhat better sloped, I inclined to leave the armour and size unchanged. I'm not sure about radios, there was space and intent to so equip, but will follow the existing pattern and make it radio equipped due to it's '43+ time period.

The turret was bigger and rather than being a RST like most Soviet 2MT, it should be treated as a ST. The commander had a cupola that was on the right hand side behind the cmg, showing the commander to have doubled up as loader rather than gunner as in the KV-1. This was the same arrangement that you see in the few 2MT British tanks like the Light Mk VI, Valentine II/IV and IX-XI which are all ST. Going on the existing ASL pattern then ST, 45L rof [1], 4 FP cmg

The T-80 had a unique mantle/gun crutch which allowed very high angle fire, something like 70°. So treat as AA capable for all purposes except only the cmg may fire effectively at aircraft. This would allow both MA and cmg to fire at adjacent 2nd or higher buildings, etc, but the only cmg (not the MA) could fire at aircraft. While there was at least 1 reported case of a tank MA bringing down a aircraft, a T-34 shooting down a He-111, the 45L did not have time fuse AA HE rounds so only a fluke direct hit would have an effect. The high elevation was intended for high angle street fighting rather than AA work, but the cmg still had some chance against planes.

So to summarise, MP 15, AF 6/4, size +1, ST 45L [1], cmg 4, AA capable [EXC: against aircraft only cmg], RF 1.5, 1943+.

While it would have been a good and very useful machine in '42 or very early '43, when it was done early to mid-'43, the Soviets had gone off light tanks and as the SU-76 was based upon the same chassis components and had more bang per buck, production was stopped at around 120 units (about the same as the British A9 for comparison, but still minuscule by Soviet standards). The Soviets had plenty of M3 lights and Valentines, the latter which they really liked, to fulfil the light tank role.

EDIT: More details here - http://survincity.com/2012/11/light-tank-t-80/

 

[Yuri0352]

Based on the photos of the T-80, it would appear that the Soviet designers may have intended that the multiple exterior 'grab handles' be used to accommodate the tank-rider infantry. Apparently they didn't read or perhaps ignored the ASLRB, which prohibits 'tankettes' from carrying riders.
Photographic evidence notwithstanding.

Thanks for the link, once again I learned something new.

 

[jrv]

The handles are not for riders. They are so the T-80 can be brought on a flight as carry-on luggage.

JR

 

[FMFCB]

Thank you Paul for the great info.
Dave

 

[Rock SgtDan]

Is this a real vehicle?

"Interrogation record of a German army prisoner, Gefreiter Arthur Fantull from 7th Company, 2nd Battalion, 64th Motorized Regiment 16th Tank Division captured on November 18th, 1941 in Grevtsovo.
SNIP :
6. Company of special armoured cars

This is the only experimental company in the division, the so called armoured infantry, designed for cooperation with tanks. The company had 15 armoured cars, with only 9 remaining. The armoured cars are open on top, and only the driver and the sides are protected with armour. The car has four axles. The first two wheels are normal. The other three pairs are on tracks. The tracks are weaker than tank tracks, but do not make as much noise as tank tracks.

The armoured car is armed with two machineguns, one in the front and one in the rear, or a 37 mm gun in the front and a machinegun in the rear. Additionally, 4 mortars are installed on the sides. These mortars can only fire once per mission. The weight of one round is 100 kg. The range of the shockwave is 200 meters. The weapon is fired directly at the target. The armoured car stops to fire. A flying shell emits a whistling noise and you can see a trail (it's possible that this is a rocket). At 2000 meters, the trajectory is 200 meters high.

These weapons are only fired at large concentrations of personnel at the orders of superior commanders. These mortars were used at Nikolayev, where 9 vehicles (36 launchers) made 36 shots.

Each vehicle is serviced by 7-8 soldiers. The machineguns can fire on the move.

Word in the regiment is that every company will receive these armoured cars. The difference is that the new cars will have regular light mortars.

FULL ARTICLE:
http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2016/02/16th-tank-division-interrogation.html

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Is this a real vehicle?

"Interrogation record of a German army prisoner, Gefreiter Arthur Fantull from 7th Company, 2nd Battalion, 64th Motorized Regiment 16th Tank Division captured on November 18th, 1941 in Grevtsovo.
SNIP :
6. Company of special armoured cars

This is the only experimental company in the division, the so called armoured infantry, designed for cooperation with tanks. The company had 15 armoured cars, with only 9 remaining. The armoured cars are open on top, and only the driver and the sides are protected with armour. The car has four axles. The first two wheels are normal. The other three pairs are on tracks. The tracks are weaker than tank tracks, but do not make as much noise as tank tracks.

The armoured car is armed with two machineguns, one in the front and one in the rear, or a 37 mm gun in the front and a machinegun in the rear. Additionally, 4 mortars are installed on the sides. These mortars can only fire once per mission. The weight of one round is 100 kg. The range of the shockwave is 200 meters. The weapon is fired directly at the target. The armoured car stops to fire. A flying shell emits a whistling noise and you can see a trail (it's possible that this is a rocket). At 2000 meters, the trajectory is 200 meters high.

These weapons are only fired at large concentrations of personnel at the orders of superior commanders. These mortars were used at Nikolayev, where 9 vehicles (36 launchers) made 36 shots.

Each vehicle is serviced by 7-8 soldiers. The machineguns can fire on the move.

Word in the regiment is that every company will receive these armoured cars. The difference is that the new cars will have regular light mortars.

FULL ARTICLE:
http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2016/02/16th-tank-division-interrogation.html

Sounds like they are describing the Sd Kfz 251 and the platoon commander variant with the 3.7cm gun. The Germans called infantry in the panzer divisions "Schützen" at that time, so the unit designations are probably translated to English as shown - 64th Schützen (later Panzergrenadier) Regiment of the 16th Panzer Division.

The Sd Kfz 251 was relatively rare, its portrayal in ASL notwithstanding. Only the panzer divisions seem to have used them as SPWs (schützenpanzerwagen, or APC (armoured personnel carrier) in English) and usage seems to be generally a handful of companies per division (sometimes just a single company). The vast majority of German motorized infantry rode in trucks.

A variant of the Sd Kfz with HE rockets fired from wooden crates on the side was known as "Stuka z. fuss" (Stuka on foot). May be what is being referred to here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wurfrahmen_40

 

[daniel zucker]

this is a photo of my dad, then 16 or 17, on the morning of the VE parade in NY city. He said that he and some of his buddys went downtown very early that morning and climbed about on the vehicles that were parked on the side streets with no one around to stop them.

Son what the heck is it? it an't a kangaroo or a lvt

 

[jrv]

Probably the M39 Armored Utility Vehicle.

JR

 

[Rock SgtDan]

The M39, like so many other vehicles, has rod welded to the side to form a carrying basket. It doesn't look like it would be a good fit to jerry cans. So I wonder what the spec was for the size of the object which could be inserted, and if some standard equipment was intended to be stowed there.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Did anyone catch that the piece on the T-70 that said the Commander also served as the Gunner, Loader & Driver!? Must be some kind of gymnast or Rambo! Not too sure the T-70 should be rated even as a 1MT!

 

[von Marwitz]

Probably the M39 Armored Utility Vehicle.

JR

The picture you provided is of post WW2 origin, though. The vehicle as well as the truck have Bundeswehr insignia.

von Marwitz

 

[olli]

B

The picture you provided is of post WW2 origin, though. The vehicle as well as the truck have Bundeswehr insignia.

von Marwitz

Mm that one is exactly the same vehicle as in the original posters pic.

 

[jrv]

The picture you provided is of post WW2 origin, though. The vehicle as well as the truck have Bundeswehr insignia.

I was aware of that. It is a very clear photo, and for that reason I chose it. The vehicle was used only late in WWII, and was later given to the Bundeswehr for use as an APC. It was also used in Korea.

JR

 

[kcole4001]

It's a Hellcat chassis, knew I'd seen those road wheels before.

 

[jrv]

It's a Hellcat chassis, knew I'd seen those road wheels before.

At first I thought it was an M24 Chaffee chassis. I am not a Paul Weir by any means, so I don't know how similar the road wheels are between the two. To me it looks like the same style of road wheels used by many late-war & post-war US vehicles. They all look alike to me.

JR

 

[chris_olden]

It's a Hellcat chassis, knew I'd seen those road wheels before.

It sure looks like it!!