Da Paul Challenge

Status
Not open for further replies.

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,727
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Others have speculated about it being a refueller based upon a T-26. It's definitely a Soviet T-26 variant, not a Vickers or 7TP. It's been some time since I read the book where I saw it. It could be a fuel variant, but something niggles and it could be a chemical warfare sprayer, capable of spraying a persistent agent like Mustard Gas and doubling up as a decontamination sprayer (to neutralise Mustard Gas and the like).

Just be careful if you see the term "Chemical Tank" with regard to Soviet kit. Soviet FT tanks were regarded as part of the chemical warfare service. The term "OT" seems to have been used mainly, if not exclusively, post war. So OT-133 would be used post war for the KhT-133 where KhT means "Khimicheskiy Tank" and would have been the term pre and early war.,
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,008
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
Others have speculated about it being a refueller based upon a T-26. It's definitely a Soviet T-26 variant, not a Vickers or 7TP. It's been some time since I read the book where I saw it. It could be a fuel variant, but something niggles and it could be a chemical warfare sprayer, capable of spraying a persistent agent like Mustard Gas and doubling up as a decontamination sprayer (to neutralise Mustard Gas and the like).

Just be careful if you see the term "Chemical Tank" with regard to Soviet kit. Soviet FT tanks were regarded as part of the chemical warfare service. The term "OT" seems to have been used mainly, if not exclusively, post war. So OT-133 would be used post war for the KhT-133 where KhT means "Khimicheskiy Tank" and would have been the term pre and early war.,
Maybe along your lines of chemical it is for laying a smoke screen?
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,727
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
I'll have to track down that one. The only hint I see is that the rifles sticking out the side seem to be early Lee-Enfields (SMLE), so likely British. If so then it's not an AC that saw much service beyond trials.

Unusual in that it appears to have cast armour!
 
Last edited:

Yuri0352

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
2,074
Reaction score
1,122
Location
25-30 Hexes
Country
llUnited States
I would also guess that vehicle is British based on the rifles, although the water jackets on the MG's look more like M1917 Browning's than Vickers.

Could this be some sort of vehicle which was used during 'the trouble's in Northern Ireland?
 

ActionBurk

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2011
Messages
986
Reaction score
155
Location
kent,ohio
Country
llUnited States
I would also guess that vehicle is British based on the rifles, although the water jackets on the MG's look more like M1917 Browning's than Vickers.

Could this be some sort of vehicle which was used during 'the trouble's in Northern Ireland?
You are on the right track. It was made to keep law and order in a large city. According to the caption the machine guns are Maxims.
 

Yuri0352

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
2,074
Reaction score
1,122
Location
25-30 Hexes
Country
llUnited States
Well, if its British and it was used for policing in North Africa , I would have to guess it was used in Egypt, perhaps in Cairo or Alexandria. I still have no clue as to the manufacturer.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,727
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
I think I'm out of this. If you wanted to find something that I didn't know, then you succeeded:clap:, I'm not Yhwh and the '20s is where I start to take an interest in modern warfare. Ancient, Classical, Medieval and up to the end of the Musket & Pike warfare interests me but in general Napoleonic to WW1 doesn't.

Of course whilst Googling I spotted a few tasty sidetracks, too many in fact, so not a complete waste of time. Just a few minutes ago I spotted http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2016_03_01_archive.html . It has a nice article on the British Covenanter tank which was, along with the British Valiant tank, an object lesson in how not to design a tank. Well worth a read, should give some a chuckle and show that projects that produced overpriced and useless lemons are not a recent phenomenon.
 

ActionBurk

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2011
Messages
986
Reaction score
155
Location
kent,ohio
Country
llUnited States
I think I'm out of this. If you wanted to find something that I didn't know, then you succeeded:clap:, I'm not Yhwh and the '20s is where I start to take an interest in modern warfare. Ancient, Classical, Medieval and up to the end of the Musket & Pike warfare interests me but in general Napoleonic to WW1 doesn't.

Of course whilst Googling I spotted a few tasty sidetracks, too many in fact, so not a complete waste of time. Just a few minutes ago I spotted http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2016_03_01_archive.html . It has a nice article on the British Covenanter tank which was, along with the British Valiant tank, an object lesson in how not to design a tank. Well worth a read, should give some a chuckle and show that projects that produced overpriced and useless lemons are not a recent phenomenon.
Sorry, Paul this one is a WWl vehicle called Mother, constructed by British military authorities in Cairo. It was an " enormous armoured lorry, based on a chain-drive Commer chassis ". From the introduction of " Tanks in Camera, 1940-1943 ", Archive Photographs from the Tank Museum ", David Fletcher.
Picked it up at the library on Saturday, I'd never seen that book before and I've been going there for 35+ years. Love it when that happens.
Seems like Mother would have maintained law and order quite well.
 
Last edited:

Yuri0352

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
2,074
Reaction score
1,122
Location
25-30 Hexes
Country
llUnited States
I think I'm out of this. If you wanted to find something that I didn't know, then you succeeded:clap:, I'm not Yhwh and the '20s is where I start to take an interest in modern warfare. Ancient, Classical, Medieval and up to the end of the Musket & Pike warfare interests me but in general Napoleonic to WW1 doesn't.

Of course whilst Googling I spotted a few tasty sidetracks, too many in fact, so not a complete waste of time. Just a few minutes ago I spotted http://tankarchives.blogspot.ie/2016_03_01_archive.html . It has a nice article on the British Covenanter tank which was, along with the British Valiant tank, an object lesson in how not to design a tank. Well worth a read, should give some a chuckle and show that projects that produced overpriced and useless lemons are not a recent phenomenon.
Tank Archives is an excellent resource. Thanks for the heads up on the Covenanter article. Now I know what those things on the upper left hull front are...who could have possibly thought that would be a good place to put the radiators?
I would love to see the Chapter H notes on that POS.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,727
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Yeah, the gun barrel seems tiny in comparison. I suppose that is a perspective problem, like a mild 'fish-eye' lens on the camera. The feed tray on the gun does seems to match the 4 round clip.

The shield top seems to match the S-60, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZP_S-60.

Though having almost the same muzzle velocity as the WW2 era ZiS-2 57mm AT gun (57×480mm R), the S-60 uses a shorter and fatter cartridge (57×348mm SR). R=Rimmed, SR=Semi-Rimmed. AP penetration for both guns is about 105mm using APCBC. While becoming less able as the jet era progressed, it seems to have been a far more successful design than the equivalent Bofors 57mm.

Its initial design was supposed to be based on late war German work on a 5.5cm gun and the earlier 5cm FlaK 41. Unlike the Germans, the Soviets got their S-60 to work and work well and still was very useful in North Vietnam amongst other places.
 

KhandidGamera

Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
464
Reaction score
225
Location
Greencastle, PA
Country
llUnited States
Imagine these as a bigger version of the 40L Bofors in ASL terms.
About the only advantage they'd have would be quick traverse.
Probably normal size. Seems like they'd get credit for a gun shield.
From the wiki looks like it might not have the penetration of a Russian 57LL ATG.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,727
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Imagine these as a bigger version of the 40L Bofors in ASL terms.
About the only advantage they'd have would be quick traverse.
Probably normal size. Seems like they'd get credit for a gun shield.
From the wiki looks like it might not have the penetration of a Russian 57LL ATG.
I would estimate that though a larger calibre gun and bigger physically it would be be in the same rough (+1/0/-1) ASL size bracket at 0 as the Bofors.
As the Bofors is a T type the S-60 could not get any better. Link it up to radar directed fire control and you would get mods for AA fire, but that's fairly outside WW2 and by then the Bofors equivalent would be the 40mm L/70 rather than the WW2 L/60.
While the S-60 had a gun shield, which also could be fitted to the Bofors L/60, it would be too small to protect the crew and ammo stores. A gun shield might be of use when it's being used as an artillery piece like in the photo but when used as designed as an AA piece there would just be too many extra bodies feeding ammo, directing, etc.

I looked at the APCBC at 90° at the ASL standard of 500m.
ZiS-2: 103mm
S-60: 106mm
While it can be argued whether APCBC-HE was should be the basis for WW2 ASL TK numbers for the ZiS-2 rather than the earlier AP-HE, I am comparing like ammo types with like to get a fair comparison. Given that they had the same muzzle velocity, their similar AP performance is not surprising.

As an aside, the ASL TK numbers seem to better reflect the best ammo within a particular ammo class. Within AP, ignoring HEAT/APCR/APDS, this could cover the progression of AP, APC, APCBC. With most guns that only meant an extra 10mm or so, better against angled armour or lower odds of shattering against face hardened armour. The worst example would bet the US 37mm M6 and tank versions (37LL). At 500m at 0°, that went from 36mm with M74 AP to 61mm with M51 APC, a difference of 25mm! Those would translate to TK of 9 and 11 respectively. If you wanted to reflect this for British use in '41 and US use in the Philippines '41-'42 lower the TK to 9 by SSR, but use the official 11 thereafter. This is partly reflected in MMP's U2 "Sweep For Bordj Toum Bridge" SSR 7.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,201
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
If you look carefully you will see a highly camouflaged AFV.

mystrie_tahnk.jpg

[The "hole" on the side is actually a photoshopped-in blob to obscure the markings.]

JR
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top