D3.3 and C13: Passengers, Bounding First Fire and LATW

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Hello!

Interesting (desperate) situation has occured in a VASL game of J61 In The Bag.
I have a M3A1 halftrack adjacent to a sIG and BFF'd fired the MGs at their CE crew to no effect.
The ht is transporting a 1-2-6 refugee crew from an immobilised Sherman and I'm wondering if they can take possession of the inherent Bazooka and blast the sIG.
According to US vehicle note Z the passengers can take possession of the BAZ automatically, and I couldn't find anything that prohibits BFF of LATW in C13, D3 or A9. In fact D3 specifically allows BFF by Passengers.

If this shot is legal, what are the modifiers?
Neither Case B nor C apply to LATW, and C3 only applies in the AFPh.
So I'm thinking that there are no penalties (other than the backblast penalties of C13.8), although it seems a little odd.
Help!

Cheers

Chris
 

Commissar Piotr

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Hi Chris

See first sentence of D6.1, quoted below:

6.1 PASSENGERS: Passengers ride inside their transporting vehicle and have their FP halved for Mounted Fire [EXC: armored halftracks; 6.63] (in addition to any penalties for Bounding (First) Fire/Motion).

So the +4 To Hit DRM do apply and it will be Backblast penalties for the shot but no extra DRM for being a Passenger as you are in a halftrack.
 

The Purist

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:hmmm: Hmmm,...Commissar, I'm not sure of the +4 DR mod. Can you break down the cases, please?

I do see the +2 for firing in the Adv Fire Ph and a 'possible' +2 for "desperation". However, if the ATTACKER wishes he could take the backblast and go with only a +2.

Unless I am reading the rules wrong.

Edit - Re: Ole's post below.

Ahah! Ok, gotcha,...missed the part on desperation, though.
 
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Ole Boe

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The Purist said:
I do see the +2 for firing in the Adv Fire Ph and a 'possible' +2 for "desperation". However, if the ATTACKER wishes he could take the backblast and go with only a +2.
He was talking about BFF, i.e. fire during the MPh, so the +4 modifier is case C. As Piotr points out, case C is applicable for LATW, even though it's not marked with an "L".

Note that the C3 +2 DRM for avoiding the backblast is NA from the HT - you must risk the colored dr on the 1 FP column. The +2 DRM is only an option when firing from a Ground Level building or from Rubble (C13.8).
 

Commissar Piotr

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Good Day Gents
Thank you Ole, you beat me to it.

I actually did make a mistake, should be +2 if you are stopped of course.
As Ole points out the +2 Desperation DRM is NA.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Commissar Piotr said:
I actually did make a mistake, should be +2 if you are stopped of course.
But not if fired as Bounding First Fire though - is it ?

Then doesn't rule C5.3 apply ?

Rule C5.3:
"Vehicular (including Passenger) ordnance which fires during its MPh (D3.3) must use one of the Case C DRM (i.e., it must add the +2 DRM of Case B to the applicable Gun Type DRM of Case C) as Bounding First Fire for any shot it takes."
 

Brian W

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Ole Boe said:
He was talking about BFF, i.e. fire during the MPh, so the +4 modifier is case C. As Piotr points out, case C is applicable for LATW, even though it's not marked with an "L".
Has anyone done a perry sez on this piece of errata yet? I think we are all sure of the answer, but I have been sure before. . .

Also, I think the DRM would be +5 as the HT is NT.
 

Ole Boe

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The Purist said:
I don't think turret 'speed' (FT, ST, RST, 1MT) applies to passengers,...if it does I cannot see a Baz (Psk, PIAT) being other than FT.
Well, you must pick one of the turret types for Case C, and the only reference we have is that the HT is NT. Neither the HT nor the Baz has a fast turret, so I believe Brian W is right, it should be +5 due to the NT modifier.
 

The Purist

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Fair enough, but it does appear to be just a touch ridiculous to equate the mechanics of aiming a StuG and firing a Baz from the back of a HT as being similar.

I know, I know,....forget the reality arguments :D

Ok,...if that's the way the rules go, that's the way way the rules go. It just a game.
 
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Hello!

Thanks for the input, I just found this, the C5.3 example and it seems to cover it. The mod seems to be +5 for ALL passengers. Though it would only be +2 for an AAMG. Strange..

Chris

EX: A Stabilized Gun (D11.11) firing in the AFPh after entering a new hex during that Player Turn must apply a +3 DRM (case B + C; 2 + 1) to its To Hit DR; a T or ST Gun Type must add a +4 DRM (2 + 2); a NT Gun Type or any Passenger must add a +5 DRM (2 + 3). MA AAMG would add +2 DRM (Case B only).
 

alanp

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Wow! good thing that example is there; I was just about to make the comment that T/ST/NT definitions [C5.1-.12; various chapter D] are only used in conjunction with GUNS and Changing CA--bazookas are ordnance, not Guns, and have no CA!

let us know how that 1-2-6 fares!!
 

Ole Boe

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The Purist said:
Is the final DR mod only +2 or is it +5? I am still having trouble treating a hand held Piat/Baz/Psk as a turret.
It is +5.

D6.1 and D5.3 are both clear that also the passengers of a vehicle must pay case C-C2.

Case C then have three possible choises: +2 (Case B) and:
a) +1 if the vehicle is firing a stabilized gun
b) +2 if the vehicle is turret/slow turret
c) +3 if the vehicle is non-turret.

There are no other choises, so you have to choose one of those (well, there is actually one special case where Case C is B+0, but you'll have to wait for the next version of my IIFT(M)QRDC to see that in the DRM table ;) ).

You are more correct that you think though, although you probably won't like the concusion: You are absolutely correct that a hand held piat/baz etc. has no turret, and therefore they must use the last choise, +3 for non-turret :surprise:

So the vehicle type doesn't matter when the passengers fire ordnance, the passengers are not turreted and therefore use the +3 for NT option, for a case C of +5.

This is clear from the D5.3 example: "...a NT Gun Type or any Passenger must add a +5 DRM (2 + 3)."
 
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The Purist

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Drat!!!

Ok, that seems pretty much to be it. To be honest I have never fired a LATW as a passenger so this instance never occurred to me. Normally I just unload and use +2 for firing in the Adv Fire Ph (+ any other mods for target size, TEM, etc.).

Been playing this SL/ASL thing since 1978 and I am still learning things,... :crosseye:
 

Ole Boe

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I have never fired LATW from vehicles either, but then I've been only playing from 1993-1998 and again from march this year...

Remember that all backblast weapons have the desperation penalty in addition to those DRM too :p
 

Brian W

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Ole Boe said:
I have never fired LATW from vehicles either, but then I've been only playing from 1993-1998 and again from march this year...
Ole, you have to get out more. Nothing is more dangerous than a carrier with a PIAT. They are impossible to hit once they are in your hex. Better have some infantry nearby to stun them. . .
 

Phil_Draper

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Hello,
I dug this old thread out while looking for how to fire a LATW (with backblast) from a halftrack.

My question is; if a passenger HS fires it must take the desperation attack, but does the vehicles inherent crew/other passengers also suffer from the backblast attack? Does the vehicle suffer in any way? It seems odd that with sufficient height advantage a unit can treat a HT as unarmoured but firing a backblast weapon from inside it does not.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Phil
 
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