D3.12 question on TCA change in a building

[KevinG]

ok, I have an afv that starts it's MPh in a building. I want to start it and spin the TCA at the same time. The last part of D3.12 says that the "MPh expenditure required for TCA change in the MPh is doubled if in woods or building". So how does that work exactly? Does the start MP cost 2MP if it coincides with a TCA change? Do I have to delay 1 MP either before or after the start before the TCA can be changed? In this situation is there any way to change the TCA before a Defender can first fire with the TCA in it's initial position ?

 

[apbills]

A question I have no rulebook answer for.

I would say yes, count the Start MP as 2 and change the TCA. You could also declare 2 delay and turn it as well. I do not think the defender could fire prior to the TCA move as it is considered 1 action, i.e., it is not 1 delay, than 1 delay and the TCA changes.

As for combining with the start, that is not really covered in the rules. You can declare more MP than required to enter a new hex (D2.18) but there is nothing explicit about the start MP. I would allow it myself since there are cases (stall, bog) that requrie more than a single MP to start.

 

[Hubbs5]

From my reading of the version 2 Rulebook I don't think the start MP is increased to 2. It remains one but in order to change the TCA you need 2 MP's expended for each hexspine you change if the tank is in woods, building, or rubble. So you would start for one and then have to use an additional delay MP before the TCA could be changed. Here is the V2 Rulebook excerpt from D3.12:

"The TCA may also change freely with each MP expended during the MPh. The TCA change must be announced as the MP are expended for movement, stop, start, or Delay purposes; i.e., the MP cost for a TCA change is not in addition to other MP expenditures. The MP expenditure required for a TCA change during its MPh is doubled if in a woods or building obstacle (not Bypassing those obstacles or on a road) or rubble hex (C5.11). For Narrow Streets see B31.12. The target Facing of any turret/upper structure superstructure hit is based on the target's TCA-not it's VCA."

It says the MP expenditure for a TCA change is doubled not the MP costs itself. JMHO.

 

[KevinG]

Right, but the problem is, doubled from what? The regular VCA change is essentially free, being that you can change any number of spines combined with any other MP usage. Just saying it is doubled in woods/building really doesnt make sense in this case since there is no base charge in the first place, which is what is confusing me.

 

[Hubbs5]

Right, but the problem is, doubled from what? The regular VCA change is essentially free, being that you can change any number of spines combined with any other MP usage. Just saying it is doubled in woods/building really doesnt make sense in this case since there is no base charge in the first place, which is what is confusing me.

In the rules section that I quoted was a reference to Rule C5.11 which talks about the Case A DRM's which are also doubled when in woods, building or rubble. I think what they are talking about is the Case A DRM's which are doubled for guns and they are saying that a vehicle has the same DRM's if it is in the same terrain. Only thing that makes sense to me.

I realize we are talking apples and oranges here as section D rules are talking about the ability to move your turret and the section C rules are talking about the effect that movement has on your To Hit roll. But like I said given the 2 rules references together that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[apbills]

After reading more, thanks Greg, I would agree with Greg. A TCA is freely changed with each MP expended, that is doubled in woods or buildings. You would need to expend 2 MPs before you can freely turn the TCA.

Your choice would be

a) turn the TCA during Prep and forgo movement

b) use 2 MPs, either delay and Start or some other combination in order to get 2 MPs expended, allowing you to turn the TCA then. The opponent could fire on that first MP expenditure, prior to the TCA turning.

 

[KevinG]

I think the way I am going to play it is that the TCA can't change on the first MP spent (start, delay, whatever), and only changes after the second MP.

So, if I start as the first MP spent in the MPh in a woods/building I can't change the P, allowing Defensive Fire at the current TCA facing. I could then change it I spent another MP, say to drop a SD.

 

[apbills]

I think the way I am going to play it is that the TCA can't change on the first MP spent (start, delay, whatever), and only changes after the second MP.

So, if I start as the first MP spent in the MPh in a woods/building I can't change the P, allowing Defensive Fire at the current TCA facing. I could then change it I spent another MP, say to drop a SD.

That would be correct, however, you might want to drop that sD prior to starting.