D2.1, D2.4 and Remaining in Motion

[Sparafucil3]

Relevant rules for this are D2.1 (a vehicle which elects to move must use all of it's MP), D2.4 (if a vehicle has insufficient MP's remain for the hex it wishes to enter, it may remain in motion in it's current Location), and D2.18 (a vehicle announce more MP's as it enters a new hex). See the image below. Assume the AFV enters the bypass Location from B2 and announces a MP expenditure of 2. As it does so, presume it has MP's remaining. May the AFV declare a desire to enter into D2 for more MP's than it has left, remain in C2 and place a Motion Counter? No. Assume the AFV has less than Half its MP's left. May it declare a desire to enter into D1, have insufficient MP's left, remain in C2 and place a motion counter? No. Follow up, to enter D1, it would have to continue to bypass around to the C2/D2 hexside. Assuming it has done so and now has less than half MP's left, may it now declare a desire to enter D1 without bypass and stay in C2 with a motion counter in accordance with D2.4? Not if it has enough MP to enter in bypass. Does that answer change if it has enough MP's left to instead bypass D1? NA. More succinctly: is an AFV REQUIRED to enter a new hex/hexside if it is able to before falling back on D2.4? It must be unable to enter the hex in its VCA (or RVCA if moving in reverse) it desires to enter. Does D2.4 only kick in if the AFV has no movement options left that do not require ESB? No; see above. Edit to ADD: Thanks Perry. Small follow up question then, when you say " It must be unable to enter the hex in its VCA (or RVCA if moving in reverse) it desires to enter" what happens to the remaining MP's? Are the assumed to be spent in the last Location in accordance with D2.1 or does the unit get to end it's turn without spending all its MP by the wording of D2.4? Those MP disappear (D2.4). ....Perry MMP

 

[boylermaker]

Wow, if I understand Perry's answer correctly, it's different from every theory of these rules that has been put forward so far. Hopefully MMP will cook up an errata for this one, as it seems that there is sufficient disagreement even among the cognoscenti as to merit an official clarification.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Wow, if I understand Perry's answer correctly, it's different from every theory of these rules that has been put forward so far.

It is?

I think some of the theories put forward are in line with this.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Wow, if I understand Perry's answer correctly, it's different from every theory of these rules that has been put forward so far. Hopefully MMP will cook up an errata for this one, as it seems that there is sufficient disagreement even among the cognoscenti as to merit an official clarification.

Perry has said much of what I have said all along. You can't use D2.4 to dodge having to move. You have to use your MP's if you can. You can't declare a move to D1 as it is out of your CA. If you move around the hexside so D1 is in your CA, you can't declare a move into D1 to invoke D2.4 if you have enough remaining that you can bypass the D1 hex fulfilling your "wish" to enter D1. You can't try to declare a move to a Location you are not in for more MP's than you have left and invoke D2.4. IMO, this doesn't change anything, it just codifies what the rules say. Of course, you're free at any time to stop for 1 and Delay the rest, or Stop for 1 and Start for all remaining MP's to remain in motion, any other legal move you can come up with.

What is leaves unanswered--and I have asked a follow up--is what happens to the MP's once D2.4 has been invoked. D2.1 say all un-used MP's are spent in the last Location. D2.4 says the AFV can end it's turn with un-used MP's. Those two are at odds and given the silly higher-numbered rule situation, at this point we are compelled to say they are gone and not used. I don't think this was the intent but we'll see. -- jim

 

[Actionjick]

Although I had more questions/thoughts about VBM, especially D2.3, I was going to drop the topic as interest in it seemed to be waning in the How to use AFV better thread. Since Jim brought the topic back up I'll pursue some of those thoughts here.

A4.2 and A8.1 state that MF/MP expenditure is announced out loud as the unit enters a hex or new Location in it's present hex. D2.3 states that the hexside clearance measurement cannot be made until VBM and all applicable MP costs are announced ( and thus expended in the previously occupied hex/hexside if the move is subsequently not allowed). If the hexside clearance is insufficient, the vehicle must expend one extra MP to stop in its present position - even if it then proceeds to start movement again in another direction.

Using the example in D2.3 my questions are this:
Assume the I10/J9 hexside is obstructed for the purpose of these questions.
Is J10 the present position?
If so is the total MP expended 11, 10 for the cost of the non allowed bypass plus 1 to stop?
Would the vehicle be subject to Bog or is it not considered to be entering J10?
If the vehicle intended to expend additional MP once it had successfully entered the I10/J9 hexside are those MP factored into the applicable MP costs announced by the moving player and thus be considered expended in its present position?
If the addition of the required stop MP to the announced MPs exceed the vehicle's MP allowance must it attempt ESB?
If bypass is not allowed is the stop MP considered to be used before the previously announced MP?

Just some questions that were bugging me. Thanks for any input.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Daryl,
It would be better to ask these in open forum as they are not Perry Sez or related to this Perry Sez. Having said that, I don't understand the first two questions you're asking. -- jim

 

[Actionjick]

No problem.

The first question was just to make sure that J10 was it's present position and that it was not the I10/J9 hexside. I was pretty sure this was the correct interpretation but wanted to be sure.

The second question was similar, wanted to be sure that was the correct procedure, the stop MP was not subject to the doubling for entering a higher elevation. 11 MP is correct, not 12.

I'll stick to the more philosophical aspects of the game from now on!?

 

[Philippe D.]

Not if it has enough MP to enter in bypass.

This is the one part in the answer that surprised me. If the hex in your VCA is one that you could bypass, you can't claim not having enough MP to enter the obstace itself as reason to remain Motion; you'd have to enter in bypass.

 

[Sparafucil3]

I updated the top as Perry has ruled on the MP's remaining. They disappear in accordance with D2.4. This surprises me. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not if it has enough MP to enter in bypass.

This is the one part in the answer that surprised me. If the hex in your VCA is one that you could bypass, you can't claim not having enough MP to enter the obstace itself as reason to remain Motion; you'd have to enter in bypass.

You don't have to enter in bypass. You can still spend the remaining MP as you see fit. Stop, Delay, Start, etc.

 

[boylermaker]

Yes, I was also surprised by the same nuance as Philippe--if one of you had that bit in your previous theories and I missed it, then my mistake. It seems very strange, since entering the hex in bypass makes it HARDER to enter the hex proper on the following turn, which is what you (supposedly) want to do.

 

[dlazov]

It would be nice if there was a VASL save with typed in expressions demonstrating this... the black text on white is not super clear to me. But regardless I do think I have been doing Motion, start/stop and delay correctly over the years...

 

[Philippe D.]

You don't have to enter in bypass. You can still spend the remaining MP as you see fit. Stop, Delay, Start, etc.

Yes, sure; there was an implied "if you want to remain in Motion without using all your MP" in my sentence, since this was basically what was being discussed.

In my previous reading, just being able to claim you wanted to "do this" next (enter a hex in your (R)VCA for a minimum cost higher than your remaining MP) was enough. I never thought "enter a hex" was to be interpreted as the defining phrase, meaning that if there was a way for you to enter the hex with your remaining MP, it was enough to prevent you from claiming D2.401.

I don't have a problem with this interpretation, as the rule is typically just an anti-sleaze rule. I can to basic retro-counting when needed.

 

[Sparafucil3]

I don't have a problem with this interpretation, as the rule is typically just an anti-sleaze rule. I can to basic retro-counting when needed.

Precisely. It forces people to make a decision and live with it, something that didn't have to be done before. Given Perry also agrees that the MP's not spent disappear, it was even more broadly subject to abuse than I think some people thought. -- jim

 

[mgmasl]

Usually is possible by expending more MPs than needed in the previously entered hex.. something like “all but .. MPs”

 

[Larry]

Precisely. It forces people to make a decision and live with it, something that didn't have to be done before. Given Perry also agrees that the MP's not spent disappear, it was even more broadly subject to abuse than I think some people thought. -- jim

Expending the minimum to enter the location and then having the rest disappear limits the number of shots that the non-moving player could take. Abuse of the process is exactly right.

 

[Commissar Piotr]

In your example, let us think there is a single story house in D2. Can I state that I want to enter that building and stay in Motion or do I have to enter using bypass even though I do not want that?

 

[Sparafucil3]

In your example, let us think there is a single story house in D2. Can I state that I want to enter that building and stay in Motion or do I have to enter using bypass even though I do not want that?

What does the Q&A say? Not if you have enough MP's to enter in bypass. Your question is no different that stating you want to enter D1 which is answered. If you can enter the hex, you must. If you wished to burn off those three MP's to remain in motion in your current hex, you should have spent them on entry. -- jim