CtR Paradrop Confusion

[JimWhite]

Starting CGII and between E9.42, CtR8.8, the Paradrop Play Aid and perusing the published errata and Q&A in the various threads my opponent and I are left scratching our heads about Landing Injuries.

Consider Heavy Winds to be in effect.

Upon landing in a Roofless building, in/adjacent to a jungle/jungle road, in/adjacent to a building/rubble hex or in a brush hex does the Stick takes a single 2MC?

What happens if you land in one of the above terrain types...AND...are also adjacent to one or more of those terrain types? Does the Stick take multiple 2MCs?

What about if you are simply adjacent to one or more of those terrain types? Multiple 2MCs?

Couple of other general questions:

1. What happens to the 1/2" chutes (SW or Guns) upon landing?
2. Regarding Drop Points - We've read where all Initial drop points for each Wing for Turns 1, 2 and 3 must be 3 hexes away from all other drop points...our question is must Turn 2 and Turn 3 drop points be selected prior to the start of the CG?

 

[rreinesch]

Starting CGII and between E9.42, CtR8.8, the Paradrop Play Aid and perusing the published errata and Q&A in the various threads my opponent and I are left scratching our heads about Landing Injuries.

Consider Heavy Winds to be in effect.

Upon landing in a Roofless building, in/adjacent to a jungle/jungle road, in/adjacent to a building/rubble hex or in a brush hex does the Stick takes a single 2MC?

Yes.

What happens if you land in one of the above terrain types...AND...are also adjacent to one or more of those terrain types? Does the Stick take multiple 2MCs?

Yes (though not if you land adjacent to brush, only in it.)

What about if you are simply adjacent to one or more of those terrain types? Multiple 2MCs?

Yes. (though not if you land adjacent to brush, only in it.) So landing in something like W16 or Y12 would lead to a very bad day.

Couple of other general questions:

1. What happens to the 1/2" chutes (SW or Guns) upon landing?

Nothing. They simply land since there no Dense Jungle or swamp hexes on the map.

2. Regarding Drop Points - We've read where all Initial drop points for each Wing for Turns 1, 2 and 3 must be 3 hexes away from all other drop points...our question is must Turn 2 and Turn 3 drop points be selected prior to the start of the CG?

Yes, initial drop points for each wing must be selected prior to set up.

 

[JimWhite]

Just to confirm...

Is that ONE additional 2MC regardless of the number of adjacent hexes of the appropriate terrain?

OR...is it one 2MC for EACH adjacent hex of the appropriate terrain?

 

[rreinesch]

Just to confirm...

Is that ONE additional 2MC regardless of the number of adjacent hexes of the appropriate terrain?

OR...is it one 2MC for EACH adjacent hex of the appropriate terrain?

It's one for EACH adjacent hex of appropriate terrain. That's why I mentioned landing in hexes like W16 or Y12 can cause a world of hurt.

 

[JimWhite]

It's one for EACH adjacent hex of appropriate terrain. That's why I mentioned landing in hexes like W16 or Y12 can cause a world of hurt.

We thought that is what you meant...just wanted to make sure...

So basically if somebody lands in the hexes you mentioned (and I imagine also landing on the Topside Barracks too) there is almost zero chance (not gonna do the math) of anybody surviving four-six 2MCs using the morale level of 7 of the 'chute counter.

Harsh...

But I'm the Japanese in this...our first attempt at the CG...so I'm comfortable with it...LOL

 

[rreinesch]

This reflects the conditions that the paratroopers experienced when they landed. Casualty rates were upwards of 70% for the paratroopers, with everything from cuts to broken bones to being KIA. Given the altitude they exited the aircraft at (500 feet), once the chute popped they had about 3 secs before they hit the ground which was not enough time to effectively avoid landing in bad terrain. So they wound up where they wound up.

 

[JRKrejsa]

In our playing of the big jump scenario, I'd most- 2/3 or more of the US OB was broken, and split into HS. But, got them rallied and recombined- in some cases. And onto the victory conditions.

 

[rreinesch]

In our playing of the big jump scenario, I'd most- 2/3 or more of the US OB was broken, and split into HS. But, got them rallied and recombined- in some cases. And onto the victory conditions.

Sounds about right.

 

[Ganjulama]

CG II INITIAL SCENARIO SPECIAL RULES:
I. EC are Moist with Heavy Winds at start. Wind direction is determined by a random dr during the first Wind Change DR Step (instead of making a normal WC DR at start of scenario Turn I). See C:tR HBRs.

Does this mean you use the table in section 12.5 starting with step !*12.522 Wind and Unit Setup?

 

[rreinesch]

CG II INITIAL SCENARIO SPECIAL RULES:
I. EC are Moist with Heavy Winds at start. Wind direction is determined by a random dr during the first Wind Change DR Step (instead of making a normal WC DR at start of scenario Turn I). See C:tR HBRs.

Does this mean you use the table in section 12.5 starting with step !*12.522 Wind and Unit Setup?

Yes, you will use 12.522 step to determine the direction of the wind. It is automatically Heavy Winds for strength. This provides you with the knowledge of what you are up against in regards to the wind when you define your drop points.

 

[Ganjulama]

@rreinesch

OK, how to you drop RGs G1 and G2? G1 are the 37LL ATGs and G2 are the 75 Howitzers. Both may enter via airdrop on CG day 1 and 2. Per ASLRB Sticks only contain leaders, MMCs, and SWs. CtR HBLs don't address dropping Guns.

1. Do you use a small chute counter for guns and drop them assembled? Both Guns are QSU
2. If so, do they stay cloaked until recovery?
3. There is no mention of use of gliders at all in the CG.

Caution, reality argument: I think they used C46s or C47s for the drop. How the hell did they drop these Guns? Both planes only had two doors and it does not look like a 37LL ATG would fit, much less a 75 Howitzer. Also, I find it hard to believe that if the Guns land the Japanese could not see them--I get why SWs remain cloaked but these bad boys?

Lastly, I did not have nearly enough small chute counters and I have a double set. I only had A-J. I had to use drift counters instead for all the SWs/Guns for day 1. Please tell me I'm not missing some of these

 

[jrv]

@rreinesch

OK, how to you drop RGs G1 and G2? G1 are the 37LL ATGs and G2 are the 75 Howitzers. Both may enter via airdrop on CG day 1 and 2. Per ASLRB Sticks only contain leaders, MMCs, and SWs. CtR HBLs don't address dropping Guns.

1. Do you use a small chute counter for guns and drop them assembled? Both Guns are QSU
2. If so, do they stay cloaked until recovery?
3. There is no mention of use of gliders at all in the CG.

Caution, reality argument: I think they used C46s or C47s for the drop. How the hell did they drop these Guns? Both planes only had two doors and it does not look like a 37LL ATG would fit, much less a 75 Howitzer. Also, I find it hard to believe that if the Guns land the Japanese could not see them--I get why SWs remain cloaked but these bad boys?

Lastly, I did not have nearly enough small chute counters and I have a double set. I only had A-J. I had to use drift counters instead for all the SWs/Guns for day 1. Please tell me I'm not missing some of these

US Ordnance note 12 discusses dropping the M1A1 75mm Pack Howitzer by parachute. I will guess CtR uses these rules. The 75mm Howitzer could be broken down for animal pack [G10.61] and it was probably in that form that it dropped. I don't have any information on the 37LL ATG. In a quick search I read mentions of the 75mm being dropped but not of the 37mm ATG. One example: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/rock-force-assault-macarthurs-invasion-of-corregidor/

I believe that later C-47s had wider cargo doors than earlier ones, and that probably either a 37mm gun or a 75 pack howitzer should be able to fit into it even while assembled. It might be tough pushing one out still assembled however, as they were still side doors.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The 75mm M1A1 Pack Howitzer on M8 carriage weighed 653 kg. The 37mm M3 weighed 414 kg. Though about 63% of the weight, the M3 is still a fair chunk of metal. The M1A1 on M8 with 18 rounds was broken down into 9 parachute loads. So I don't see a single parachute load being practical. The Airborne divisions had M3s in their AT/AA battalion, divisional artillery and Glider Regiments but none in their Parachute Regiments. The M3 was supposed to be landed by glider along with their jeeps. Maybe by '45 they had worked things out, but I doubt it.

All the above has nothing to do with ASL CG or SSRs.

 

[Ganjulama]

I found more small chutes but still missing j, k, and l. 6 were on back of culin and in portee counters. No AAs etc. in the set.

 

[jrv]

The M1A1 on M8 with 18 rounds was broken down into 9 parachute loads. So I don't see a single parachute load being practical.

As I understand it the separate parachute loads were strung together somehow so they didn't disburse widely. Once you found one, you found them all. The use of a single ASL parachute counter is not a literal indication of the number of actual parachutes used.

edit--The "stringing together" notion is a vague memory from reading about the Varsity drop.

This page has some stuff on dropping the pack howitzer: https://ww2airborne.net/pack75mm-1.html

JR

 

[jrv]

I have not found any reference to dropping the 37mm gun, but if it was it is possible that it was somehow attached to the outside of the plane (like some of the parts of the 75 pack) rather than carried inside.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Point taken about the "string", but for an non disassemblable gun you still have to have an extremely large parachute or triplet of large parachutes. These days you can drop multi tonne BMDs, but those are on pallets with braking rockets, not something available in WW2. No enough area in your chutes and it's "Dig it out, boys!".

The M3 would have to be externally carried and dropped like a bomb, manhandling out the C-47 cargo door in flight would be impractical, whatever about (un)loading it when you have plenty of time on the ground.

 

[ASLSARGE]

@rreinesch

OK, how to you drop RGs G1 and G2? G1 are the 37LL ATGs and G2 are the 75 Howitzers. Both may enter via airdrop on CG day 1 and 2. Per ASLRB Sticks only contain leaders, MMCs, and SWs. CtR HBLs don't address dropping Guns.

1. Do you use a small chute counter for guns and drop them assembled? Both Guns are QSU
2. If so, do they stay cloaked until recovery?
3. There is no mention of use of gliders at all in the CG.

Caution, reality argument: I think they used C46s or C47s for the drop. How the hell did they drop these Guns? Both planes only had two doors and it does not look like a 37LL ATG would fit, much less a 75 Howitzer. Also, I find it hard to believe that if the Guns land the Japanese could not see them--I get why SWs remain cloaked but these bad boys?

Lastly, I did not have nearly enough small chute counters and I have a double set. I only had A-J. I had to use drift counters instead for all the SWs/Guns for day 1. Please tell me I'm not missing some of these

Okay. Rick asked me to address this set of questions. Let me begin with the disclaimer, you may agree with our findings or disagree. These are what we used in developing this project. I addressed this issue in a previous thread, but once more won't hurt. With that in mind, let us begin.

1. How do you paradrop a 75mm Pack howitzer? It it sort of addressed in Chapter H, US Ordnance Rules, #12. They suggest using a 1/2" chute counter for this gun. I strongly disagree. In 1944 - 45 they tied together nine separate chutes to drop all the components of this gun together. In my mind, that requires a large 5/8" chute counter....as in 10-15 chutes for a squad to para drop. You can go ahead and use AH/MMP's suggestion of a 1/2" counter if you wish but I would argue that is not even close to realistic....JMO. The gun was broken down into several pieces, attached to chutes, bundled together, and pushed out the door of a C47. They did this with all the 75mm Pack howitzers on Corregidor. On Luzon the 11th Airborne landed by chutes and gliders so that was never an issue for them.
2. As far as para-dropping the 37L AT guns....why would you do this, and then, how? There is no record of any American units in WWII doing this. These guns were typically landed by glider and pushed out the back door and rushed into action. There were no gliders used on Corregidor. Purchase the 37L AT guns as a RG and bring them on board along a FBE once your paras are safely down....using manhandling or purchase some jeeps for that purpose. The Japanese have no tanks or halftracks on Corregidor...you will not need any AT guns right away. Later on the cannister comes in handy though.
3. The Japanese did not see many of the guns being dropped, or even most of the infantry either. Most of the defenders were hiding out in tunnels below ground while the naval and air bombardments were going on. By the time the majority of the defenders came back up above ground, the first wave of paratroops was already down. The Japanese did recover some American SW's. A couple instances where they grabbed a 50cal and put it to use against the paras who were on the ground already. Allowing the disassembled guns to remain cloaked prevents the Japanese player from singling out which counters to "recover" first.
4. I have 22 small chute counters in my mix....from Yanks and Paratrooper. Never used all of them even in the CG.

Any SW/gun that is paradropped would remain "cloaked" until it is either recovered, or eliminated.

Hope that helps. The issue of how to paradrop the 75mm pack howitzer is not addressed in any detail in the ASLRB. We took what was there, and extrapolated from that point what seemed "logical" and "reasonable". Again, you may agree or disagree with our findings....but that is what we used.

Sarge

 

[ASLSARGE]

As a followup to previous post......once the howitzer chute counter is recovered, the possessing unit must spend one full player turn TI in reassembling the gun prior to its use

 

[Ganjulama]

As far as para-dropping the 37L AT guns....why would you do this, and then, how? There is no record of any American units in WWII doing this. These guns were typically landed by glider and pushed out the back door and rushed into action. There were no gliders used on Corregidor. Purchase the 37L AT guns as a RG and bring them on board along a FBE once your paras are safely down....using manhandling or purchase some jeeps for that purpose. The Japanese have no tanks or halftracks on Corregidor...you will not need any AT guns right away. Later on the cannister comes in handy though.

Thanks Sarge,

The only reason to drop the 37LLs is that on CG Day 2 per footnote 'a' of the Purchase table US player may elect to have any 11 , 14 ,G 1 ,or G2 RG arrive via para drop instead of on map or of board entry, at 1 CPP less than normal.

Being the CG miser that I am, if I can get it for less I'll buy it

I think the elegant solution to the issue would be to delete 'G1' from the RGs that you buy for less turn 2.

I think using a large shoot for the 75s is the way to go.

I have 22 small chute counters in my mix....from Yanks and Paratrooper. Never used all of them even in the CG.

I'll pulling small shoots for all 3 turns of drops at the same time. I'm traveling to play this so I have a small plano with the US purchases sorted by wings.