CtR-6 Set Up Q

Justiciar

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So the set up for the Japanese says "Set up in any Hinterland Locations >= 2 hexes from any Beach Location, see SBR3." This says "Mines and wire may set up in Beach Locations."

So the Mines and Wire can set up anywhere (as otherwise allowed) BUT* adjacent to a beach location? That seems very strange if they can be ON the beach and 2 hexes+ AWAY from the beach why can't they be ADJACENT to the beach? (It get it if you wanna say b/c that is now the ASL math works, but is that really the intent...?????)

TIA
 

ASLSARGE

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Not 100% sure where you got the "ADJACENT" part since that is not mentioned in the Japanese set up or the referenced SBR......be that as it may.
Japanese infantry, gun, and pillbox MUST set up at least two hexes from any beach location. The wire and mines may set up in a beach location if desired or they may be placed elsewhere within the Japanese set up area. That help? Sorry for the late reply but I had to work all day again today.
 

Justiciar

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You missed the point.
The way the set up is written then mines can set up anywhere BUT adjacent to the beach to location. That makes no sense given they can set up on* the beach and* >= 2 hexes away from it...
 

ASLSARGE

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We reading the same scenario card? :)
Japanese set up = Set up in any hinterland hexes >= 2 hexes from any beach Location.
SBR #3 = All Japanese may set up HIP. Mines and Wire may set up in Beach Locations.

The intent of the set up instructions is that all Japanese units in their OB must set up at least two hexes from any beach location, except the mines and wire can set up in a beach location. Would it help clear everything if the word "except" was placed prior to "Mines? I think you are just reading too much into it. I still do not see where you are getting the "adjacent" part. "Adjacent" would be only one hex away, not two. If the option to place mines/wire on the beach was not there, you could only place everything in the Japanese OB at least two hexes from any beach location, correct? SBR 3 just allows you a better "up front" defense against the landings.
Sorry if the wording confused you. None of our play testers or proofers had an issue with it. Will try to be as absolutely specific as possible next time.
 

jrv

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I think you two are talking past each other. You both seem to agree that mines & wire may set up ≥ two hexes from a beach hex and also on a beach hex. Again you both seem to agree that mines and wire may not set up exactly one hex from a beach hex (i.e. adjacent or ADJACENT). I think Andy is wondering, "why," rather than asking, "where."

JR
 

Justiciar

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By your set up instructions you cannot place a mine say in J2...it is NOT on the beach AND it is not >= 2 hexes from a beach. It is adjacent to a beach i.e. 1 hex away.

That seems very odd? Or it does to me anyways.
 

Justiciar

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It seems to me that SBR 3 should have read "Mines and Wire may set up in Beach Locations and any Hinterland Locations." Thus allowing then to be adjacent to the beach. That is NA right now. They can be anywhere but in these adjacent hexes to a beach. That to me seems like a gap in your SBR. I doubt it was a gap in your intent for defensive options, was it? If so what was the historical reason the mines were on the beach, but not 40 meters from the beach, but then again found 80+ meters from the beach?
 

ASLSARGE

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It seems to me that SBR 3 should have read "Mines and Wire may set up in Beach Locations and any Hinterland Locations." Thus allowing then to be adjacent to the beach. That is NA right now. They can be anywhere but in these adjacent hexes to a beach. That to me seems like a gap in your SBR. I doubt it was a gap in your intent for defensive options, was it? If so what was the historical reason the mines were on the beach, but not 40 meters from the beach, but then again found 80+ meters from the beach?
Since you asked for the historical reason I will supply it, although that really should have no primary bearing on why I designed the scenario that way.
The historical reason is that the Japanese did place some mines on the beach. The official record does not mention them placing any further inland. The mines on the beach did knock out two of the three Shermans that landed, destroyed a jeep and a truck. There were no Japanese infantry or pillboxes or wire and trenches near the beach.....further inland and in caves overlooking the landing beach. I gave the Japanese a more flexible defense allowing them to place their units "close" to the beach ( at least two hexes away) rather than forcing them to set up way to the rear of the landing area and making it a dull, last two turns dash to win kind of thing. In reality, that is what it was. Makes for a boring scenario though.
Now, if you really want to place your mines and wire anywhere go ahead. I cannot vouch for any balance issues that may come up. The INTENT is to place everything the Japanese player has available at least two hexes from any beach hex, wiith an option to place mines and wire on the beach itself. If you decide not to use that option, then do not use it. It is an option, not a requirment.
The set up directions are what they are. If not being able to place mines and wire adjacent to a beach hex destroys your planned defense I apologize. Maybe I should have put into the set ups that the mines and wire can ONLY be placed on a beach hex and not allow the Japanese player any flexability in that regard. Personally I dislike such tight restrictions for my set ups, but that is just me. I try to give players options when playing one of my scenarios.
Not really trying to sound like a prick though it probably seems that way.....more confused as to why there is an issue in the first place. Set ups seem pretty straight forward to me. Japnese set up at least two hexes from any beach location. Mines and Wire may set up in a beach hex. No where does it state the mines and wire may set up in a beach hex or any hinterland location. The Japanese set up in any hinterland location "that is at least two hexes away from any beach hex". I guess I am just not following where you get your statement from.
If you and I were to play this scenario and you had placed any of your mines or wire adjacent to a beach hex, I would tell you that was an illegal set up per the set up instructions on the scenario card. If you disagreed, we would need to choose a different scenario then.
 

Justiciar

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Very odd that they decided to allow mines on the beach and > than 40 meters from the beach, but not 40 meters from the beach.

You fined tuned that well, then not allowing mines adjacent to the beach...must have been some exquisite PT that detected mass imbalance of you allowed mines adjacent to the beach, in addition to on it and >= 2 hexes from it. Kudos to your PTers.
 

ASLSARGE

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This entire discussion is rapidly degenerating into a total waste of time. You ask a question, then you don't accept my replies to your questions and continue to put forth something that simply is not there. Yes...mines on the beach and more than 40 yards away.....that is how I designed it. If you don't want to play it that way, don't. Our PTers are awesome. Making a sarcastic insult about them is very petty. Play the scenario however you want. I am done trying to answer your pointless questions.
 

Justiciar

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Not a waste of time at all. I learned a lot. I leave it to you to figure out what I learned.
 
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