Crew survival question

tekay44

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vehicle in bypass of an mmc in a bldg. Tank is knocked out. does the crew get a survival roll, even though considered in hex with the mmc. if so, do the enter cc with the mmc?
 

jrv

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It depends on how the vehicle was eliminated. If by CC attack or a blazing wreck there is no crew survival. Otherwise yes. The crew is placed in the building with the MMC (it could take DFF first if eliminated during the MPh). It would not immediately create a Melee (which is what I think you mean by "enter cc") but would enter/maintain an existing Melee (including one that the vehicle was maintaining).

JR
 

tekay44

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it was knocked out by an AT gun from another hex. so the crew, if it survived defensive fire , would enter into melee (that is what I meant) ?
 

jrv

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it was knocked out by an AT gun from another hex. so the crew, if it survived defensive fire , would enter into melee (that is what I meant) ?
It would not create a Melee if one did not exist before (until the end of the CCPh, of course). If one existed it would enter that Melee.

JR
 

Robin Reeve

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Units friendly to the surviving crew can fire into its Location without harming it but possibly affecting the enemy units, as Melee doesn't exist yet.
 

jrv

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They're marked with a CC counter should they survive all the Def Fire. Not the same thing as being in melee.
I believe that technically they are *not* marked with a CC counter. The purpose and placement of CC counters in the rules seems to need more work. There are situations (like this) where it would seem reasonable to place a CC counter, but the rules don't call for it. Abandonment is another case.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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it was knocked out by an AT gun from another hex. so the crew, if it survived defensive fire , would enter into melee (that is what I meant) ?
Note that the surviving crew of the bypassing vehicle is not yet IN the building during its MPh. I.e. if the tank moves in and is killed by the ATG with its Crew surviving, this crew is located on the CAFP (Covered Arc Focal Point) until the end of its MPh. This means that possible further Defensive First Fire during its MPh will also have to aim at that CAFP and the Crew will not benefit from Building TEM but rather be subject to Hazardous Movement (-2) and Wreck TEM (+1) for a net -1.

von Marwitz
 

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I believe that technically they are *not* marked with a CC counter. The purpose and placement of CC counters in the rules seems to need more work. There are situations (like this) where it would seem reasonable to place a CC counter, but the rules don't call for it. Abandonment is another case.

JR
I guess I'm slow on the uptake because it seems like the link you posted says that they are marked with a CC counter.
 

jrv

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I guess I'm slow on the uptake because it seems like the link you posted says that they are marked with a CC counter.
The link I posted is a list of rules that Klas has found that call for the placement of a CC counter. The list is, "A7.211, A8.31, A12.151, A13.61, A15.432, A25.233, D6.5, D7.21, E1.13, E7.22, E9.43, G.4, & G1.423." Crew Survival, D5.6, is *not* on that list. Abandonment, D5.4, is also *not* on that list.

JR
 

clubby

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Oh, I thought it was generally accepted that if you ended your MPh in the same location as the enemy, you were marked with a CC counter. If what you're saying is true, it seems very random.
 

jrv

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Oh, I thought it was generally accepted that if you ended your MPh in the same location as the enemy, you were marked with a CC counter. If what you're saying is true, it seems very random.
It may be generally accepted, but I don't think the ASL community has been polled to find out. It is not, as far as I know, a printed rule. To create that list klasmalmstrom researched all the mentions where a CC counter is placed. That may not be the complete list as the thread is from 2011, but I double-checked Crew Survival, and there is no mention of placing a CC counter there, nor in Abandonment.

JR
 
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von Marwitz

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The link I posted is a list of rules that Klas has found that call for the placement of a CC counter. The list is, "A7.211, A8.31, A12.151, A13.61, A15.432, A25.233, D6.5, D7.21, E1.13, E7.22, E9.43, G.4, & G1.423." Crew Survival, D5.6, is *not* on that list. Abandonment, D5.4, is also *not* on that list.

JR
Now what is the exact fuction of the CC-counter besides signifying target selection limits?

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Now what is the exact fuction of the CC-counter besides signifying target selection limits?
I don't think the CC counter actually signify (at least not rules-wise) target selection limits per se. I think its main purpose is to show that the units are not yet in Melee - which is a little odd, since had they been in Melee, there would/should be a Melee counter present anyway.

The only two rules that I now of that actually places any sort of limit on units marked by a CC counter are:
A4.7 which prevents a unit marked by a CC counter from advancing and
D7.21 which prevents a unit marked by a CC counter from using non-CC Reaction Fire.

The CC counter - one the enigmas in the ASL world. :)
 

jrv

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I don't think the CC counter actually signify (at least not rules-wise) target selection limits per se. I think its main purpose is to show that the units are not yet in Melee - which is a little odd, since had they been in Melee, there would/should be a Melee counter present anyway.

The only two rules that I now of that actually places any sort of limit on units marked by a CC counter are:
A4.7 which prevents a unit marked by a CC counter from advancing and
D7.21 which prevents a unit marked by a CC counter from using non-CC Reaction Fire.

The CC counter - one the enigmas in the ASL world. :)
The question I have is whether being marked with a CC counter prevents use of non-CC Reaction Fire in general. A4.7 clearly says that being marked with a CC counter prevents Advance. D7.21 says, "After completing {the CC-RF attack}, that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW (including those inherent) and Guns are marked with a CC counter, if the vehicle has survived, to prohibit non-CC Reaction Fire attacks." What is not clear is whether this prohibition applies only if the unit acquired its CC counter making a CC-RF attack, or if it applies more generally to any unit marked with a CC counter, no matter how the CC counter was acquired. For instance a crew manning a concealed Gun lets a jeep unload halfsquad in its hex. Per D6.5 a CC counter is placed. There are two aspects. First, does the CC counter apply to the gun/crew in addition to the halfsquad, or only to the halfsquad? If the CC counter does apply to the gun/crew, is it now prohibited from using non-CC RF?

JR
 
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