Crew/HS and Inherent FP

[Philippe D.]

Another one in my ongoing series "and here I thought I knew the basic rules of the game"...

I am not sure anymore that I understand how Crew/HS Inherent FP (and its interaction with SW/Gun usage) works.

A7.352 A crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353].

7.353 In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3), FPF (8.31), and Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks (regardless of how they were used during First Fire)—although use of full SW/Gun capability during such attacks can negate inherent FP in the normal manner. See the 8.41 EX.

I think I never noticed this A7.353 exception - in my mind, once as HS/Crew had fired with anything other than its Inherent FP, it could not use anything else.

Now here's a situation: a Crew manning a Gun fires it as Defensive First Fire, and retains ROF (so, is not marked with First Fire). Being in a Woods, the Gun's CA is now fixed.

Later, an enemy unit comes adjacent, but out of the Gun's CA. Can the Crew fire its Inherent FP in this situation? It has already fired (with the Gun), and is not marked with a First Fire since it retained ROF. Can it fire again during the MPh (as First or Subsequent First Fire)? During Final Fire? (assuming it has to fire outside of the Gun's CA)

And, if it does have a firing opportunity, is it allowed to choose between its SW/Gun and its inherent FP?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yes, the gun has fired, but has retained ROF. If the crew wishes to fire its IFP it will do so as S1F/FPF (dependent upon the situation). This is another rare instances where one must remember a previous action conducted during a phase even though ASL is fundamentally a game of data dump once an action has occurred (hence, usually marking a unit with a fire counter etc.). If the crew had possessed another SW in addition to the fired gun (marked with a fire counter or not), it could only use its IFP as a crew/HS cannot fire two SW/Ordnance weapons while in Infantry counter form.

 

[clubby]

They fired ANY SW/Gun. They lose their Inherent FP. They may fire their Inherent FP as halved FP for SFF or FF/FPF vs ADJACENT units.

 

[clubby]

And, I believe, that if you choose to fire inherent as SFF, for example, that you're marked Final Fire and even though the Gun had ROF, you're done except for possible FPF shots.

 

[Eagle4ty]

And, I believe, that if you choose to fire inherent as SFF, for example, that you're marked Final Fire and even though the Gun had ROF, you're done except for possible FPF shots.

My understanding as well.

 

[von Marwitz]

And, I believe, that if you choose to fire inherent as SFF, for example, that you're marked Final Fire and even though the Gun had ROF, you're done except for possible FPF shots.

If firing inherent as SFF, the Gun would further lose any acquisition it might have had I believe.

von Marwitz

 

[Brian W]

And, I believe, that if you choose to fire inherent as SFF, for example, that you're marked Final Fire and even though the Gun had ROF, you're done except for possible FPF shots.

You could also possibly (depending on the gun used) get another Intensive Fire shot via OVR Prevention, see C5.64, even after being marked Final Fire.

 

[Philippe D.]

OK, so you are saying that it is possible to fire as Subsequent First Fire even though the unit is not marked with First Fire? This is (still) kinda confusing to me.

 

[clubby]

Marking a unit is a memory aid. You fired ANY SW/Gun. That is now your condition going forward. Just as if you Prep Fire and maintain ROF with no more targets. You're not technically "marked" with a PFPh marker, but you can't move. Think of it as a situation where as soon as you decided to SFF, you're now marked with a First Fire marker before you fire.

 

[Brian W]

OK, so you are saying that it is possible to fire as Subsequent First Fire even though the unit is not marked with First Fire? This is (still) kinda confusing to me.

To whom are you addressing this question?

 

[Philippe D.]

To whom are you addressing this question?

Well, all of the people who replied before me, since I understood that they were basically saying the same thing.

 

[Philippe D.]

Marking a unit is a memory aid. You fired ANY SW/Gun. That is now your condition going forward. Just as if you Prep Fire and maintain ROF with no more targets. You're not technically "marked" with a PFPh marker, but you can't move. Think of it as a situation where as soon as you decided to SFF, you're now marked with a First Fire marker before you fire.

I understand your explanation, but I don't see how it is supported by the rules.

8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE is where SFF is defined, and it only says anything about "a unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) already marked with a First Fire counter" - and I don't see any exception about being unmarked despite having already fired as First Fire.

The situation with Prep Fire and the MPh is quite different, as per the wording:

4.1 BASIC MPh: During his MPh, the ATTACKER may move all, some, or none of his Infantry units provided they did not fire during the PFPh...

So here the restriction on movement does not come from the Prep Fire counter, it comes from having fired.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The answer could perhaps be found in rules A7.352 and 7.353.
The HS/crew which fires a SW/Gun loses IFP, except for SFF/FPF.
So normal First Fire is NA.

7.352 A crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353].
7.353 In both of the above cases, Subsequent First Fire (8.3), FPF (8.31), and Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks (regardless of how they were used during First Fire)—although use of full SW/Gun capability during such attacks can negate inherent FP in the normal manner.

 

[Binchois]

I understand your explanation, but I don't see how it is supported by the rules.

8.3 SUBSEQUENT FIRST FIRE is where SFF is defined, and it only says anything about "a unit/(its MG/IFE-weapon) already marked with a First Fire counter" - and I don't see any exception about being unmarked despite having already fired as First Fire.

The situation with Prep Fire and the MPh is quite different, as per the wording:

So here the restriction on movement does not come from the Prep Fire counter, it comes from having fired.

The answer could perhsos be found in rules A7.352 and 7.353.
The HS/crew which fires a SW/Gun loses IFP, except for SFF/FPF.
So normal First Fire is NA.

I think Philippe is specifically asking about the Gun that maintains ROF during First Fire. If you split hairs, the rules aren't perfectly clear on this. Since the Gun does not have a First Fire counter on it, is it still free to fire when the crew SFFs? The answer is no (as others have described), but I don't see this spelled out precisely. For my money, the distinction between "weapon" and "unit" is enough:

[Edit: removed bad citation!]
​

Since the "unit" is the crew (with Gun) and not the Gun alone, once the crew begins to SFF, it (and it's Gun) no longer has any First Fire options. The Gun's remaining ROF is lost.

 

[Philippe D.]

Actually, what I cannot find in the rules is something that allows the Crew to use Subsequent First Fire.

From my reading of the rules, it does not have a First Fire counter, so it does not qualify for SFF. But, since it fired and maintained ROF, it cannot use its Inherent FP for First Fire either. And, since the Gun's CA is now fixed, it cannot use the Gun on its wanted target.

So, by this reading, it looks like its options are worse than if it had just lost ROF - then it could SFF with its Inherent FP. Since this conclusion seems weird to me, I'm looking for either a confirmation, or an explanation of what I am reading wrong.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I agree that the rules are not clear that the crew/HS may use SFF.

 

[Brian W]

Well, all of the people who replied before me, since I understood that they were basically saying the same thing.

All I said was that a crew that has Final Fired can potentially fire again using the Gun as OVR Prevention. Such a unit is marked Final Fire (as the post I was replying to and quoted said), so when you asked me (your post was directly below mine and used the word "you") about not being marked, I had no idea what you were talking about. You are talking about a hs/crew with a sw/Gun and its ability to use SFF.

 

[Brian W]

I agree that the rules are not clear that the crew/HS may use SFF.

Well, the same problem can occur with a full squad that is using two SW; does anyone have a problem with a full squad using SFF when it has lost its IFP due to use of two SW?

 

[Binchois]

Well, the same problem can occur with a full squad that is using two SW; does anyone have a problem with a full squad using SFF when it has lost its IFP due to use of two SW?

Nope - no problem at all. Prep and First/Final counters are primarily memory aids. The rules are clear that a crew may SFF once it fires a SW/Gun. It may SFF its IFP or SF/IF its weapon. Using ROF is optional, so it seems highly unlikely that simply maintaining ROF would keep the unit from employing its SFF IFP option.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Well, the same problem can occur with a full squad that is using two SW; does anyone have a problem with a full squad using SFF when it has lost its IFP due to use of two SW?

It is not about people having problems or not.
It is about the rules not being clear.

Bullying an application of the rules by leaning on what people usually do or like to do is a logical fallacy.
Prove your interpretation of the rules by the rules, otherwise your demonstration is just subjective.

To be clear, I would apply the rule as you suggest.
But I haven't found a solid justification of that practice in the wording of the rules.