Counter set does not provide sufficient number of vehicles w/o extra armament - What's the rule?

[klasmalmstrom]

The rules typically don't "handle" non-official scenarios/products/whatever.

 

[Stewart]

This is not what D1.84 stipulates and repeating your opinion on this thread will not change the rule. I'll stick to it.

So, some players will be playing with AA armaments while other GROGNADS will be playing without the AA armaments?

Don't you think that a bit odd?

 

[Eagle4ty]

So, some players will be playing with AA armaments while other GROGNADS will be playing without the AA armaments?

Don't you think that a bit odd?

I can only tell you what I do when play-testing a scenario. I will look at the "Official" published module numbers provided and reference that in my AAR remarks to the designer as they may want to address any inconsistencies with their published OBs as given. They then can address the situation with a revised OB, an SSR, include additional counters along with their product, or choose to ignore the differences as being of little or no consequence no matter how it's played. If I (or we) feel it may have a material impact on the outcome of the game, we will play the game both ways by adding in and deleting the optional armaments appropriately to see if it really impacts balance at all in our estimation.

A classic example is the use of the various types of Russian T-26s in an OB. If the general gist of the scenario is an armor fight it is of very little consequence what optional armament is included with the vehicles and probably not worth the effort to note it in the pictured OB or addressed by an additional SSR. One reason being, some people simply count the number of units in an OB (even a picture of others unit may make person think a scenario is too big even though a number noted below a single depiction may connote the same number of units involved - our brains simply work that way even if we realize it or not) or the number of SSRs in a scenario to make a determination to play the scenario or forego it. It is the part of the responsibility of the players when doing their Mission Analysis (scenario prep) in such a situation, that they address such concerns and could actually be used as a "hidden" balance as whether to use them as depicted on the counters available or as depicted on the scenario card.

As other have stated, most often times you will this conundrum when playing TPP offerings as the scenario designers and perhaps the play-testers have plethora of counters available to them and simply have not considered that others have only the basic "Official" products in their inventory; are much more concerned about a relatively more rapid release of products; or simply view that the differences in vehicle outlays as simply of little or no consequence for one reason or another. JMHO

 

[Tim Niesen]

How many of ASL players in their 50s or 60s do not have multiple copies of at least Beyond Valor? I can see that those new to the game have not the T-26s needed. Tim

 

[jrv]

How many of ASL players in their 50s or 60s do not have multiple copies of at least Beyond Valor?

I only have the one.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

JR, you do not suffer from my prior desire to have large pickup scenarios. Of course, the ASL player that would play those type of games with me died this year of lung cancer. Steve played them decades ago but has for at least twenty or so years refused to play nothing but scenarios. I cannot imagine not having the additional counters from the two Hollowed Legions games for the Rumanians in the campaign game we are playing. And the Russians would soon come up short of counters in the second session of this game. Tim

 

[aiabx]

I only have the one.
JR

Just one for me. First edition at that.

 

[Eagle4ty]

How many of ASL players in their 50s or 60s do not have multiple copies of at least Beyond Valor? I can see that those new to the game have not the T-26s needed. Tim

Doesn't make a difference. A scenario designer should be aware of "official" counter limits in a basic kit and not cater to an expected number of players that have multiple sets or additional counters from whatever source. If They fail to address the issue by SSR or noting different outlays of armaments for vehicles in the OB, if continued play reveals a balance issue with the scenario that may or may not be blamed upon using optionally armed units (or even in some cases optional units entirely), that's on the designer & publisher. I personally would not include such a poorly researched scenario presentation for inclusion in a tournament setting usually, nor would I consider it a very professional approach to a scenario presentation.

 

[Justiciar]

How many of ASL players in their 50s or 60s do not have multiple copies of at least Beyond Valor? I can see that those new to the game have not the T-26s needed. Tim

I for one do not. I have only* my BV from 1989.

 

[Justiciar]

I only have the one.

JR

Yeah but your like 70 something...

 

[Justiciar]

Also I think this thread title is akin to Pearl Jam's "Elderly Woman..." in that it is the longest in the ASL catalogue of thread title names...but von M has to be precise...

 

[Robin Reeve]

In presume that a scenario designer must consider that players have only one sample of the official modules.
At least, when there are more of a given equipment in a scenario than there are in the module, SSR still indicate to substitute them with other existing units.

 

[Tim Niesen]

One of the reasons for me having at least three Beyond Valor sets and two Yanks sets is that I that I made the error of lending out my ASL collection to an insane man with cats. Counters were lost or destroyed. The reason for my two Italian sets was that we loved to play massive games with the Germans and Italians versus the Russians. Of course, this was in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I was in a job from hell with ASL as my only weekly entertainment. Tim

 

[Justiciar]

.... I made the error of lending out my ASL collection to an insane man with cats. Counters were lost or destroyed. .... Tim

Oh, you mean you lent your kit to Paul M. Weir! ....

 

[larrymarak]

Guys, are you playing the game, or is the game playing you? The rules and components are your tool kit. to use as you see fit. I agree that an MMP scenario should be checked against the contents of the MMP or Avalon products called for. But if you need 2 more T26-33's with no CMGs, use any other unit counter or a blank counter and treat it as the necessary unit. With the difficulty maintaining the entire proprietary ASL line in print at the same time it behooves hobbiests to be flexible. If you're afraid you'll forget that some ersatz counters are not to be read as printed, use counters from a different game. At work with my gaming buddies at lunch wecused dimes once to represent 3 more counters of a given type.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Guys, are you playing the game, or is the game playing you?

Amen.

But if you need 2 more T26-33's with no CMGs, use any other unit counter or a blank counter and treat it as the necessary unit.

A photocopier is your friend. Be men, not Devo.

 

[von Marwitz]

How many of ASL players in their 50s or 60s do not have multiple copies of at least Beyond Valor? I can see that those new to the game have not the T-26s needed. Tim

Hum? Am I surrounded by old people?!

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

Hum? Am I surrounded by old people?!

von Marwitz

Well the grand kids think I'm older than dirt!

 

[von Marwitz]

Also I think this thread title is akin to Pearl Jam's "Elderly Woman..." in that it is the longest in the ASL catalogue of thread title names...but von M has to be precise...

"Today I am writing you a long letter, because I do not have the time to write a short one."

This famous quotation is selectively attributed to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, Jonathan Swift, Blaise Pascal, Heinrich von Kleist, François-Marie A. Voltaire, Mark Twain, Karl Marx or X. von Marwitz

:bow:

von Marwitz