Counter/Chap H/Armory Assistance

[pwashington]

Bear with me on this one. Getting ready to play ASL17 Lost Opportunities (updated version from Yanks 2). The German OB calls for two Pz 35R 731(f) tanks. Per German Chap H note 44.1, those counters were included in Paratrooper! (four total were included). Hutch's Armory lists those, as well as four of them on Beyond Valor3 sheet 8. In pulling counters for the game, I was unable to find them in either my Paratrooper! counters or in my BV3 counters. However, I do have four Pz R35(f) counters in Paratrooper, and four in BV3. They appear to be identical to the Pz 35R 731(f) counters on the ASL17 scenario card except for the nomenclature, so the plan is to use the Pz R35(f) counters. Chap H does not include an entry for the Pz R35(f) that I could find (to include the German Vehicle Rarity Factor Chart), but does have the Pz 35R 731(f) in the notes (per above) as well as in the Chart. Assuming I'm correct, I'm guessing that the entries in Chap H, in Hutch's Armory for both the Paratrooper! and BV listings, and the counter on the scenario card, need to be corrected/erratacized. Not sure if the Pz 35R 731(f) designation occurs anyplace else. I anticipate at some point the counter graphic was updated but the change didn't make it to all of the other locations where it appears. If I missed something I'm sure folks will let me know. In the AARs I found for the scenario, it didn't appear that the discrepancy affected play, so it's probably more of an accuracy issue.

If this was previously discussed I was unable to find it posted anywhere.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

These counters, in Beyond Valor 3rd Edition have the designation: Pz 35R 731(f). At least in the 2016 (or later) re-prints.

 

[pwashington]

Klas,
Okay, thanks, but were those counters changed between BV versions? My BV (v3 I think) came with Pz R35(f) counters, not Pz 35R 731(f) counters. The fact that the Chap H note 44.1 comment is wrong (the counters in Paratrooper! were Pz R35(f) counters) leads me to believe that when the counter graphics were changed, somehow that never made it to the other places where the designation occurred. Is there a scan/photo of the actual BV3 countersheet showing the counters? I'm not trying to point fingers, I'm just trying to confirm, after spending an hour sorting and re-sorting my German tank counters that I'm not missing something.

Edit: Based on a quick search, it looks like Pz 35R 731(f) is the correct designation, but the counter we have is the Pz R35(f).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I don't recall the exact history of the counters/Chapter-H illustration to be honest. But they are the same counters.

 

[Hutch]

Found at this Website:

4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sfl.) auf Fgst.Pz.Kpfw.35 R 731(f) - Tank Encyclopedia

After the fall of France, some 174 Renault R35s would be modified and used as anti-tank vehicles by the Germans.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

The designation of the German tank destroyer is slightly different depending on the source used. According to T.L. Jentz and H.L. Doyle (Panzer Tracts No. 7-1), it is known as 4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sfl.) auf Fgst.Pz.Kpfw.35 R 731. Author D. Nešić, (Naoružanje Drugog Svetskog Rata-Francuska) mentions it as the Selbstfahrlafette 4.7 cm PaK(t) auf PzKpfw 35 R (f). W.J. Spielberger (Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Deutschen Wehrmacht) names it the 4.7 cm PaK(t) auf Panzerkampfwagen 35 R(f) ohne turm. The precise name is also somewhat complicated by the Germans using both R35 and 35R in their documents.

This article, for the sake of simplicity, will use the simple and unofficial Panzerjäger 35R designation.


Also noted it when entering the data on the Scenario Archive for HL3

281

Tridentina Avanti!

​

Axis

17/6/0

Russian

16/0/2

1943-01-26

ASL 7a - Hollow Legions (3rd Edition)

The listed was the Pz 35R but the Scenario Card showed the Pz R35.

 

[pwashington]

Chap H should be easy enough to fix with the eASLRB option. If an overall correction is desired, I guess the question is what to change, Chap H or the counters.

 

[pwashington]

Found at this Website:

4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sfl.) auf Fgst.Pz.Kpfw.35 R 731(f) - Tank Encyclopedia

After the fall of France, some 174 Renault R35s would be modified and used as anti-tank vehicles by the Germans.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

The designation of the German tank destroyer is slightly different depending on the source used. According to T.L. Jentz and H.L. Doyle (Panzer Tracts No. 7-1), it is known as 4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sfl.) auf Fgst.Pz.Kpfw.35 R 731. Author D. Nešić, (Naoružanje Drugog Svetskog Rata-Francuska) mentions it as the Selbstfahrlafette 4.7 cm PaK(t) auf PzKpfw 35 R (f). W.J. Spielberger (Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Deutschen Wehrmacht) names it the 4.7 cm PaK(t) auf Panzerkampfwagen 35 R(f) ohne turm. The precise name is also somewhat complicated by the Germans using both R35 and 35R in their documents.

This article, for the sake of simplicity, will use the simple and unofficial Panzerjäger 35R designation.

Hutch,
The PzJg 35R(f) tank destroyer (German Chap H note 44) is separate from the Pz 35R 731(f) tank (captured Renault R35 with a 37* MA). I think one explanation may be that the two vehicles may have gotten somewhat mixed up during original proofing - the issue apparently goes back to when Paratrooper! and the original Chap H were produced. The discrepancy was apparently carried over to subsequent printings of both the rulebook and the counters.

 

[Zugführer]

My four Pz R35(f) counters have the identifications a to d and do not have the number 731 on them. They have the 37* MA.

My three PzJg 35R(f) counters have the identifications A to C. They have the 47L MA.

So the number 731 in the vehicle note 44.1 is not on my counters. The Pz R35(f) is meant in that note 44.1 anyway.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Chap H should be easy enough to fix with the eASLRB option. If an overall correction is desired, I guess the question is what to change, Chap H or the counters.

The name/designation in Chapter H is correct and it is the same as the counters in the latest version of Beyond Valor. My guess is that the illustration in Chapter H looks like the counters from Paratrooper - which are the same counters - so there's really (IMO) no error per se.

 

[pwashington]

I wonder if space on the counter was an issue, although that doesn't account for the 35R vs. R35 difference. Maybe the easiest solution at this point is to add the missing counter graphics to the German Chap H note 44.1 and include a comment that they represent the same vehicle and can be used interchangeably. Based on which version of the BV3 reprint you have and what a scenario calls for, you may not be aware that you have an option to use either counter for that vehicle.

 

[Eagle4ty]

It just seems as the German MAVN note 44.1 Pz35R 731(f) is simply erroneously noted as the Counter depiction is displaying a Pz R35(f) and is so designated on the counter depiction as is the actual counter(s). The 731 designation was given to all AFVs based upon the Renault model category tanks and could just as well have been added to the R35(f) or R40(f) in German service as it could to the PzJg 35R(f) [German MAVN #44). This is readilly apparant by noting such nomenclatures as those given to the different configurations of the FT17(f) models [German MAVN 9.1] as well as the Hotchkiss series of French AFVs given the 735 designation regardless of the fact they may have been with differing configurations (others not presented in MMP's counter mix). For example the Char B1 bis was given the series designation of 740 in German service regardless of the fact it may have been converted to a Flame Tank or not (though generally it was referred to as a PzKw B2 or PzKw B2(FL) in common usage). Again, neither of these are provided for in MMP's counter mix.