Control of burning terrain question

sdennis

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This was buried in my AAR of our RO CG, trying it here to see if I can get an answer...

8969


So the blazes were always controlled by the Russian and my German rockets started the original fire.
My 467 has bravely taken control of N21 which may go to a blaze. If it does blaze do I still control that location for border drawing?
Or if it goes blaze and "joins" the large fire does the fire control rules kick in and whomever controls the majority around them get control of them all??? Even if I had that location or he had the rest?

Which rule trumps what here? Can a blaze "flip" control of a location especially for perimeter purposes?

And what if we tie in controlling the hexes around it?
 

Binchois

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While I might need to know more specific SSR and VC, I can say the following as presented by you:

1) The "unintentional" blazes which result from HE attacks do not forfeit control as do those from kindling. However,

2) Your intrepid 4-6-7 does indeed control the ground-level Location N21. It is simultaneously true that the Russians still control building N21.

3) If that Location goes to blazes, it is no longer considered to be a controllable Location (i.e. no one controls it) and it is no longer considered part of the building that the Russians control:

A26.14 & B24.1 Q. If a single hex of a multi-hex building is rubbled, is that rubble hex still part of the building for purposes of building control in VC for example?​
A. No​

Since you do not control it, the Blaze Location cannot be considered by either side for Perimeter drawing purposes. If control of the Location was a goal to fulfill VC (or other) requirements, however, you would then need to consider who is in control of adjacent Locations (as per A26.161-.162).
 

jrv

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A blaze started by kindling forfeits control [A26.16]. A blaze started by "accident" (anything but Kindling) does not affect control, and its Location/hex can change if a majority of hexes are also controlled by the opposite side. If both sides control the same number of adjacent hexes, neither side controls a majority, and the current control does not change.

JR
 

sdennis

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A blaze started by kindling forfeits control [A26.16]. A blaze started by "accident" (anything but Kindling) does not affect control, and its Location/hex can change if a majority of hexes are also controlled by the opposite side. If both sides control the same number of adjacent hexes, neither side controls a majority, and the current control does not change.

JR
JR, trying to parse your answer here...

Are you saying that as the fire progresses whomever last controlled it still controls it (implicitly) but if the other side controls the majority surrounding the entire fire that control is "lost" either during the scenario or at end during perimeter drawing?

If I have that right, if it were game end right now I control 5 of the 9 hexes AROUND the 3 blaze counters and the 3 blazes would become German controlled?
 

jrv

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Are you saying that as the fire progresses whomever last controlled it still controls it (implicitly) but if the other side controls the majority surrounding the entire fire that control is "lost" either during the scenario or at end during perimeter drawing?

If I have that right, if it were game end right now I control 5 of the 9 hexes AROUND the 3 blaze counters and the 3 blazes would become German controlled?
I think that is right.

JR
 

Binchois

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I think that is right.

JR
I don't think this is correct. If the question was on control for VC purposes - If N21 was required for to fulfill VC - then control of the hex would pass to whomever controlled the majority of adjacent hexes (as per A26.161-.162). If building control was in consideration for VC purposes, then the Russians have yet to lose control of building N21...

But if we're only asking what Locations does each side currently control (or control at game's end - as for Perimeter drawing), I do not think that any side can claim to control a blazing Location. This is a different use of the Q&A than intended (cited in post #2 above), but I think that would still be the likely conclusion to be drawn.

In other words, I think A26.161-.162 is for VC determination only.
 

jrv

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I don't think this is correct. If the question was on control for VC purposes - If N21 was required for to fulfill VC - then control of the hex would pass to whomever controlled the majority of adjacent hexes (as per A26.161-.162). If building control was in consideration for VC purposes, then the Russians have yet to lose control of building N21...

But if we're only asking what Locations does each side currently control (or control at game's end - as for Perimeter drawing), I do not think that any side can claim to control a blazing Location. This is a different use of the Q&A than intended (cited in post #2 above), but I think that would still be the likely conclusion to be drawn.

In other words, I think A26.161-.162 is for VC determination only.
RB/RO campaign games never use building control and all strategic locations are always controlled by one side or the other. I don't believe this is an abstract question. It is a question about RO, and in particular a campaign game.

JR
 

Binchois

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"all strategic locations are always controlled by one side or the other"
THIS, I could not find. If true, then I would agree that during the scenario, all sides lose control of N21 when it becomes a blaze. Control of it passes to whomever controls the majority of adjacent Locations.
 

sdennis

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RB/RO campaign games never use building control and all strategic locations are always controlled by one side or the other. I don't believe this is an abstract question. It is a question about RO, and in particular a campaign game.

JR
Correct, in a RO/RB CG at the beginning of perimeter drawing how is control of the blaze locations (the only thing that matters) determined? Strategic locations are ALWAYS controlled by one side or the other.

So using the fire control rules to determine this seems to make sense...

But that conclusion makes my job harder as the fire spreads...
 

jrv

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THIS, I could not find. If true, then I would agree that during the scenario, all sides lose control of N21 when it becomes a blaze. Control of it passes to whomever controls the majority of adjacent Locations.
Each side controls all strategic locations in its initial setup area at the start of the CG, and there is no way for strategic locations to become uncontrolled.

edit: here is the rule I was looking for: O11.6051 "A Strategic Location can never be a No Man's Location, as one side will always Control it."

JR
 

Binchois

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Each side controls all strategic locations in its initial setup area at the start of the CG, and there is no way for strategic locations to become uncontrolled.

JR
I see - and excuse my ignorance. There seems to be no other interpretation than your first one, then.
 

STAVKA

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This was buried in my AAR of our RO CG, trying it here to see if I can get an answer...

8969


So the blazes were always controlled by the Russian. My 467 has bravely taken control of N21 which may go to a blaze. If it does blaze do I still control that location for border drawing?
Yes.
Or if it goes blaze and "joins" the large fire does the fire control rules kick in and whomever controls the majority around them get control of them all??? Even if I had that location or he had the rest?
No.

Which rule trumps what here? Can a blaze "flip" control of a location especially for perimeter purposes?
No.
And what if we tie in controlling the hexes around it?
Cannot happen, unless you play a non-CG Scenario. To gain Control of the enemy Blaze Locations you have to draw a Perimeter around them.
 
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jrv

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Cannot happen, unless you play a non-CG Scenario. To gain Control of the enemy Blaze Locations you have to draw a Perimeter around them.
I disagree. It's all location control, and location control can happen in all the normal ways.

JR
 

STAVKA

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I disagree. It's all location control, and location control can happen in all the normal ways.

JR
We think it is clear that Location Control markers in Blazes still remains and can only be flipped in step O11.6059.
Footnote 24: ...has carfully drawn out its respective perimeter...
 

sdennis

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We think it is clear that Location Control markers in Blazes still remains and can only be flipped in step O11.6059.
Footnote 24: ...has carfully drawn out its respective perimeter...
So with this interpretation, if a blaze hex(es) are controlled by the russian BEFORE going blaze the Germans cannot control them until the next scenario when the blazes go away? Even it they control everything around it? Well no... there is the rule about an unoccupied set of location "going over" if not occupied.
 

STAVKA

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So with this interpretation, if a blaze hex(es) are controlled by the russian BEFORE going blaze the Germans cannot control them until the next scenario when the blazes go away? Even it they control everything around it? Well no... there is the rule about an unoccupied set of location "going over" if not occupied.
I agree with your end conclusion.

Otherwise, assume a CG scenario start with a big chunk of terrain that are blazing and one side have 30 Hexes around the blaze area in Control vs the opposing side only 6 Hexes. Then after 5-8 turns all terrain set ablaze simple fall in the hands to the majority player (perhaps 2 factories and more) with no resistance at all.

We had this discussion in the early days of Red Barricades and found that the ch A rule should not be used in RB.
 

Den589

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Correct, in a RO/RB CG at the beginning of perimeter drawing how is control of the blaze locations (the only thing that matters) determined? Strategic locations are ALWAYS controlled by one side or the other.

So using the fire control rules to determine this seems to make sense...

But that conclusion makes my job harder as the fire spreads...
That was my reading of it that I was trying to explain to Steve this weekend. Right now if it ended the German would control all of these blaze locations (winning the adjacent hex control count 5 to 4), when hex O23 goes blaze they are going to flip back to Russian controlled (winning the adjacent hex control count 6 to 5) until German gets the majority again, if tied it stays with the last side to control it via adjacent hexcontrol count.

That was my take on the blaze control anyways. As the fire spreads towards the Russian, the German's job to steal these blaze hexes becomes harder. So hence, get out of my factory!!!!!!!!
 
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