Control Gain/Forfeiture question

[Bad Dice]

The Russians, for the sake of argument, solely control a building. For the purposes of this argument let's say that the building is on Deluxe board a, and that the building itself is aK2. German OBA has started a Flame which became a Blaze, which has subsequently engulfed the majority of locations in this building. Four hexes remain enterable by either side.

Both German and Russian units are in the building, but the Russians never lost Control of it.

Am I correct in assuming that the Russians could leave the building and retain Control of it if:

All ground level Locations (which -except for one- currently contain Flames) become Blazes, to include the Location the Germans are in, provided the Russians do not leave the building first;

The Russians are forced out of the building by means of a Blaze, even if there are German units in the building?

A 21.161 suggests the latter, since the Russians were in Control of the building before placement of the first Flame, which was accidental, and have retained Control to this point even though the building contains Blazes in the majority of Locations since they never lost Control, and now most of it is on fire. The example following didn't offer clarity, and the rule itself seemed at least a little contradictory.

Thoughts?



BD

 

[Philippe D.]

It is not spelled out in A26.161 (not B21.161, which doesn't exist), but I would like to believe this rule only takes effect if there are no units in the building to maintain control.

With this in mind, I would say if all ground level locations are Blazes, and you leave the building while the opponent still has a Good Order MMC in a higher level, they gain control of the building, and A26.161 would only kick in if they lost that unit.

But by a strict reading of the rules, I am not sure what should happen, really. The rule seems to be written in such a way as to save as many words as possible, and this results in a very difficult situation.

 

[Binchois]

As this was an "accidental," OBA fire, I believe the answer is NO. The Russians will lose control of the building as soon as they leave as the Germans still have a unit inside. This due to the last two sentences of A26.161:

A26.161...Control of a building that is unenterable due to such a Blaze is gained by the side Controlling all of the building hexes per the first part of this rule. The Locations/hexes/buildings must be unenterable by all Ground units of both sides for this rule to apply.
​

As long as some of the ground-level hexes inside the building remain enterable, normal building control rules (A26.14) stay in effect. Once the building can no longer be entered, A26.161 kicks in.

P.S. I agree, btw: A26.161 is a ridiculously congested paragraph that could use some revision. Ideally, the rule would be subdivided into separate parts for Location, Hex, and Building, instead of insisting these remain lumped together as "Locations/hexes/buildings"!

 

[Bad Dice]

B21.161.. doesn't exist

Yeah, my bad.

...by a strict reading of the rules, I am not sure what should happen, really. The rule seems to be written in such a way as to save as many words as possible, and this results in a very difficult situation.

Which was the problem I had. It should be fairly easy to state, in fairly linear, binary logic, who gains or loses Control in such a situation, but the rule seems to step on itself and say both yes and no.

...I believe the answer is NO. The Russians will lose control of the building as soon as they leave as the Germans still have a unit inside.

Which was the source of the quandary. You can read the rule both ways, and if you incorporate the phrase '...controls the majority of enterable Locations...' that just seems to make things less clear. Also, if you look at the ensuing example, it would at least seem to imply that owning the hexes immediately adjacent to the enterable/unenterable hexes is also good enough to assume Control, which makes things less-clear as well since the example talks about the 8 Locations adjacent to what I presume is the entirety of the building in the example, when there are IIRC, 10 or 11. Perhaps the example is talking about the hexes which are adjacent only to unenterable Locations, but I think why I'm not clear on this is probably understandable.


BD

 

[clubby]

How do you have 10 or 11 locations adjacent to you?

 

[Robin Reeve]

Note that if the German unit is a SMC he cannot gain control.
Only MMC gain control.
SMC can prevent losing it, however.

 

[Bad Dice]

How do you have 10 or 11 locations adjacent to you?

That's the number of Locations (hexes, in this case) adjacent to the whole of the building given in the example for A 21.161.

 

[Binchois]

Yeah, my bad.

Which was the problem I had. It should be fairly easy to state, in fairly linear, binary logic, who gains or loses Control in such a situation, but the rule seems to step on itself and say both yes and no.

Which was the source of the quandary. You can read the rule both ways, and if you incorporate the phrase '...controls the majority of enterable Locations...' that just seems to make things less clear. Also, if you look at the ensuing example, it would at least seem to imply that owning the hexes immediately adjacent to the enterable/unenterable hexes is also good enough to assume Control, which makes things less-clear as well since the example talks about the 8 Locations adjacent to what I presume is the entirety of the building in the example, when there are IIRC, 10 or 11. Perhaps the example is talking about the hexes which are adjacent only to unenterable Locations, but I think why I'm not clear on this is probably understandable.

BD

I am not sure where your phrase, "...controls the majority of enterable Locations..." is originating from. This is a rule (A26.161) I've had wrong in the past, so I feel your pain!

I may still have it wrong, but as I see it now, the first sentence states that players are not held responsible for "accidental" fires. The second sentence says that Blaze counters might affect Control. Afterwards, the rule begins to describe how a blaze might affect control, beginning first with its affects regarding Location and Hex Control. Only the last two sentences deal with building Control, essentially stating that building Control rules remain unchanged unless all ground level Locations of that building have become unenterable. Remember that "Blaze counters might [or might not!] affect Control."

Control of a building that is unenterable due to such a Blaze is gained by the side Controlling all of the building hexes per the first part of this rule.​

If the building is unenterable, then control of it can only be gained by control of the majority of its adjacent hexes as per the first part of A26.161.

The Locations/hexes/buildings must be unenterable by all Ground units of both sides for this rule to apply.​

This confirms that Control of multi-hex buildings are not affected by A26.161 until all of its ground-level hexes are on Fire ("ground-level" because an enemy unit could be on 2nd level when the first floor is burning, but if the first floor isn't enterable, then he can't alone can no longer lay and claim over the building, or prevent the application of A26.161).

If there is another way to read this, I don't see it yet.

 

[Bad Dice]

...Control of multi-hex buildings are not affected by A26.161 until all of its ground-level hexes are on Fire...

That's sort of what I got, as well. The text before and after did serve to obscure the meaning, as did the example. Badly written rule. I should rewrite Chapter A.



BD

 

[Binchois]

That's sort of what I got, as well. The text before and after did serve to obscure the meaning, as did the example. Badly written rule. I should rewrite Chapter A.

BD

We might just be better off!