Continuous Slope & Cliffs?

[Bret Hildebran]

Deluxe board n - is there a continuous slope from hex G5 to E5?

Alpine Hills are in effect so it is a matter of LOS.

B.5 defines Continuous slope as: "...a change in elevation such that, in each hex, successively crossed by the LOS, the elevation changes by one level in a continuous gradient."

G5 to E4 is obviously continuous. But is G5 to E5? If we look at F4, then sure - it is the same as the obvious example - levels 3-2-1. But the LOS also cuts F5 which is far less obvious as it is a Level 3 base level, but the LOS never cuts the L3 (since the cliff doesn't block LOS). Guess I'm leaning towards continuous slope, but it is not crystal clear to me at least. Last time we played it, we let the dice gods decide and they said blocked. What say you?

 

[Wayne]

I'm thinking probably No LOS, but for other reasons.

B.5 CONTINUOUS SLOPE: ... All rules pertaining to same-level LOS also apply to Continuous Slope LOS [EXC: walls/hedges and AFV/wrecks ...

*B10.211 ALPINE HILL OPTION: ... equal-elevation hill hexes ... block LOS through (not into) them.

...because range from G5 to E5 (or E4) is >1, there can be no "same-level" LOS down a Continuous Slope in Alpine Hills, IMO.

Given that walls/hedges will not block a Continuous Slope LOS, does a Continuous Slope negate Alpine Hill? That's not in the B.5 EXC list, so, probably not?

 

[Doug Leslie]

I think that the applicable rules are as follows:

11.2 The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork.

Therefore the serrated edge depiction at the E5/F4/F5 vertice has no effect on the issue.

A6.1 CHECKING LOS: The ability of a unit to "see" and "fire directly" at another unit in a different hex is dependent on having a LOS between those units. Whether a unit has a LOS to a given hex is usually determined by stretching a sewing thread taut between the center of the firing hex and the center of the target hex. If the thread does not cross a terrain depiction capable of obstructing the LOS between the target and firing hexes (with the obstruction visible on both sides of the thread) [EXC: Inherent Terrain hexes (B.6) block or hinder LOS if traced exactly along their hexside even though the terrain depiction is not visible on both sides of the thread], there is a clear LOS between the two hexes. If players still cannot agree whether a LOS is blocked or not, the matter is resolved by a dr: 1-3 LOS is not blocked; 4-6 it is blocked. It is usually (but not always; see B.6 & B9.1) the terrain depiction which can potentially block or hinder LOS—not the hex containing that terrain type.

In this situation, the cliff is equivalent to a LOS obstacle insofar as it creates a blind hex to any LOS traced across it. Applying the logic of A6.1, it does not create a blind hex unless the cliff depiction is visible on both sides of a thread. Clearly that is not the case here, so normally there is a continuous slope from G5 to E5.

Given that Alpine hills are in play however, LOS is blocked since a continuous slope is presumbly treated exactly in the same way as LOS between units at the same level.

 

[Larry]

B11.2 and the example of 15U6 to V4. The black serrated edge is not an obstacle. That is what sticks out. LOS and continuous slope applies.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Deluxe board n - is there a continuous slope from hex G5 to E5?
View attachment 21571
Alpine Hills are in effect so it is a matter of LOS.

B.5 defines Continuous slope as: "...a change in elevation such that, in each hex, successively crossed by the LOS, the elevation changes by one level in a continuous gradient."

G5 to E4 is obviously continuous. But is G5 to E5? If we look at F4, then sure - it is the same as the obvious example - levels 3-2-1. But the LOS also cuts F5 which is far less obvious as it is a Level 3 base level, but the LOS never cuts the L3 (since the cliff doesn't block LOS). Guess I'm leaning towards continuous slope, but it is not crystal clear to me at least. Last time we played it, we let the dice gods decide and they said blocked. What say you?

The Level 3 hill doesn't seem visible on either side of the LOS string as per A6.1 (...If the thread does not cross a terrain depiction capable of obstructing the LOS between the target and firing hexes (with the obstruction visible on both sides of the thread) just the Cliff depiction and that exists at the lower level per B11.2 (The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork.).

The LOS should be open & considered a Continuous Slope per B.5 ( A Continuous Slope is a change in elevation such that, in each hex successively crossed by the LOS, the elevation changes by one level in a continuous gradient. All rules pertaining to same-level LOS also apply to Continuous Slope LOS [EXC: walls/hedges and AFV/wrecks (D9.4)] even though the latter term is not mentioned, although Height Advantage is unaffected.)

 

[bendizoid]

I'm thinking probably No LOS, but for other reasons.

...because range from G5 to E5 (or E4) is >1, there can be no "same-level" LOS down a Continuous Slope in Alpine Hills, IMO.

Given that walls/hedges will not block a Continuous Slope LOS, does a Continuous Slope negate Alpine Hill? That's not in the B.5 EXC list, so, probably not?

We just went through this a few months ago. I thought they would but in fact they don’t, alpine rules do not apply to continuous slope.

 

[Wayne]

We just went through this a few months ago. I thought they would but in fact they don’t, alpine rules do not apply to continuous slope.

Good to know (and I wasn't here then).

[An ASLRB editor might want to add Alpine Hills to the B.5 EXC list, then.]

 

[Eagle4ty]

We just went through this a few months ago. I thought they would but in fact they don’t, alpine rules do not apply to continuous slope.

I would still disagree with that conclusion as B10.22 would certainly seem to apply and and B10.21 on;ly mentions same level LOS restrictions while there is no exception specifically mentioned to B.5 for Alpine Hills. COWTRA would certainly seem to apply here IMHO.

 

[Wayne]

I'm finding this in Q&A:

B.5 & B10.211
Does “alpine hills” block LOS down an continuous slope?
A. No.

 

[apbills]

We just went through this a few months ago. I thought they would but in fact they don’t, alpine rules do not apply to continuous slope.

I was not around either, and the Q&A is another one that I do not really understand the reasoning.

B10.211
Q: Does "alpine hills" block LOS down an continuous slope?
UA: No.

 

[Bret Hildebran]

Thanks for the QA reference. I have no idea how they get there rules wise, but I guess we must abide by the ruling. I presume that's from a GS question someone submitted and thus not a printed ruling as of yet?

Thanks for all of the quick responses...

 

[apbills]

Thanks for the QA reference. I have no idea how they get there rules wise, but I guess we must abide by the ruling. I presume that's from a GS question someone submitted and thus not a printed ruling as of yet?

Thanks for all of the quick responses...

You would be correct. All the "Unofficial" answers from the Romanowski and Malstrom collections I have labeled in my eASLRB as "UA" to distinguish from official Q&A. It would be nice (as Wayne suggested earlier in this thread) to get errata in the B.5 exception to add that exception to "All rules pertaining to same-level LOS ..." since apparently per the Q&A it is an unidentified exception to that rule.

 

[Actionjick]

You would be correct. All the "Unofficial" answers from the Romanowski and Malstrom collections I have labeled in my eASLRB as "UA" to distinguish from official Q&A. It would be nice (as Wayne suggested earlier in this thread) to get errata in the B.5 exception to add that exception to "All rules pertaining to same-level LOS ..." since apparently per the Q&A it is an unidentified exception to that rule.

Nice tip about the " UA ".

 

[apbills]

In 2011 I converted my eASLRB into html, and only recently have I had the time to add in Q&A. When I started that earlier this year I combined the two available files (Scott's and Klas'), duplicated the Q&A with multiple paragraphs to allow a one-to-one linkage from the rulebook paragraph to the text of all Q&A associated with that paragraph, and then placed all Q&A into one single html file. Below are 2 screen shots of the results:
Rule Chapter "flagged" with Q&A:


Clicking on the flag link takes you to the Q&A file:

In addition, I updated all the graphics that came with questions, and added some that did not have a graphic, so that I can better understand the question/answer:

It is helping me re-learn the rules after my work-induced hiatus from the game.

 

[Actionjick]

In 2011 I converted my eASLRB into html, and only recently have I had the time to add in Q&A. When I started that earlier this year I combined the two available files (Scott's and Klas'), duplicated the Q&A with multiple paragraphs to allow a one-to-one linkage from the rulebook paragraph to the text of all Q&A associated with that paragraph, and then placed all Q&A into one single html file. Below are 2 screen shots of the results:
Rule Chapter "flagged" with Q&A:
View attachment 21572

Clicking on the flag link takes you to the Q&A file:
View attachment 21573
In addition, I updated all the graphics that came with questions, and added some that did not have a graphic, so that I can better understand the question/answer:
View attachment 21574
It is helping me re-learn the rules after my work-induced hiatus from the game.

Very nice!

 

[BraveDave]

Deluxe board n - is there a continuous slope from hex G5 to E5?
View attachment 21571
Alpine Hills are in effect so it is a matter of LOS.

B.5 defines Continuous slope as: "...a change in elevation such that, in each hex, successively crossed by the LOS, the elevation changes by one level in a continuous gradient."

G5 to E4 is obviously continuous. But is G5 to E5? If we look at F4, then sure - it is the same as the obvious example - levels 3-2-1. But the LOS also cuts F5 which is far less obvious as it is a Level 3 base level, but the LOS never cuts the L3 (since the cliff doesn't block LOS). Guess I'm leaning towards continuous slope, but it is not crystal clear to me at least. Last time we played it, we let the dice gods decide and they said blocked. What say you?

Doesn't B11.21 apply here: "Unlike normal Crest Lines (10.23), the Blind Hexes caused by a cliff hexside to a non-adjacent viewer can never be reduced below one regardless of elevation advantage. (See EX at the top of the next page.)"

 

[apbills]

Doesn't B11.21 apply here: "Unlike normal Crest Lines (10.23), the Blind Hexes caused by a cliff hexside to a non-adjacent viewer can never be reduced below one regardless of elevation advantage. (See EX at the top of the next page.)"

The vertex E5:F4:F5 appears to be in the dark brown-black cliff color, which does not block LOS per B11.2, so it appears the LOS in the situation goes from Level 2 (G5) to Level 1 (F4:F5) to Level 0 (E5) which would make it a continuous slope.

 

[BraveDave]

The vertex E5:F4:F5 appears to be in the dark brown-black cliff color, which does not block LOS per B11.2, so it appears the LOS in the situation goes from Level 2 (G5) to Level 1 (F4:F5) to Level 0 (E5) which would make it a continuous slope.

As indicated by the picture example in B11.2, the cliff hexside depiction does not affect LOS "along" - i.e. parallel to the hexside. LOS from any other angle across the cliff hexside depiction would be affected by B11.21 as shown in the picture example for that section.

 

[apbills]

As indicated by the picture example in B11.2, the cliff hexside depiction does not affect LOS "along" - i.e. parallel to the hexside. LOS from any other angle across the cliff hexside depiction would be affected by B11.21 as shown in the picture example for that section.

I do not see an example in that section that depicts a LOS across a cliff hexside.

B11.2 states "The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. "

There is a Q&A, although it doesn't really answer the question.
B11.2
Q: Is the "serrated edge of a (non-Depression) cliff" an obstacle to LOS if not traced along a hexside?
UA: IN the higher-level hex, the "serrated edge" is at the higher level; in the lower-level hex, the "serrated edge" is at the lower level. [Bruce Probst to Perry Cocke, ASLML 16-18 Jun 2003]

Given the statement in B11.2, we know that LOS along the cliff artwork (which would place it on the hexside, or somewhere within the black artwork) is considered to be at the lower level of the two hexes sharing the cliff hexside. We know from the Q&A, the serrated edges are either at the higher level or lower level based on which hex they are in, but nothing indicates what the gradient is between the two.

In this situation, the LOS is directly along the hexside, with the cliff artwork extending over the vertex. In the below image (which is from board 15, not board "n"), the higher level is at best the area of the cliff artwork "inside" the red hexside, (marked in blue) and the cliff artwork is considered at the lower level for at least that area of the cliff artwork "outside" the red hexside (marked in yellow). The LOS in question is marked in green.

I don't see how the higher cliff artwork can extend outside of its own hex, given the rule states the hexside itself is considered at the lower level.

For the question in hand, the lower level of the artwork between F4:F5 is at level 1 (and in the above example V6:V7), and the LOS is actually "along" a hexside. There should be no question with that LOS.

On the other hand, it is not perfectly clear if the below LOS, assuming Q4 is only a level 2 hill (instead of the level 3 hill) would be clear. The "thread" goes through the cliff artwork, but does go through the higher-level hex portion of that artwork. We have certain points and their levels identified by the rules and the Q&A. The edge formed by the hex L3 level 3 artwork and the cliff artwork is at level 3, the edge formed by the L2 level 1 artwork and the cliff artwork is level 1, and we know the L2:L3 hexside is considered at level 1. What I don't really know based on the 2 sources (B11.2 and Q&A) is what is the level of the cliff artwork between the hexside and the higher-level edge of the cliff artwork. I swore I saw something about this previously, but now I can't find any Q&A/Clarification.

 

[bendizoid]

I do not see an example in that section that depicts a LOS across a cliff hexside.

B11.2 states "The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. "

There is a Q&A, although it doesn't really answer the question.
B11.2
Q: Is the "serrated edge of a (non-Depression) cliff" an obstacle to LOS if not traced along a hexside?
UA: IN the higher-level hex, the "serrated edge" is at the higher level; in the lower-level hex, the "serrated edge" is at the lower level. [Bruce Probst to Perry Cocke, ASLML 16-18 Jun 2003]

Given the statement in B11.2, we know that LOS along the cliff artwork (which would place it on the hexside, or somewhere within the black artwork) is considered to be at the lower level of the two hexes sharing the cliff hexside. We know from the Q&A, the serrated edges are either at the higher level or lower level based on which hex they are in, but nothing indicates what the gradient is between the two.

In this situation, the LOS is directly along the hexside, with the cliff artwork extending over the vertex. In the below image (which is from board 15, not board "n"), the higher level is at best the area of the cliff artwork "inside" the red hexside, (marked in blue) and the cliff artwork is considered at the lower level for at least that area of the cliff artwork "outside" the red hexside (marked in yellow). The LOS in question is marked in green.
View attachment 21608
I don't see how the higher cliff artwork can extend outside of its own hex, given the rule states the hexside itself is considered at the lower level.

For the question in hand, the lower level of the artwork between F4:F5 is at level 1 (and in the above example V6:V7), and the LOS is actually "along" a hexside. There should be no question with that LOS.

On the other hand, it is not perfectly clear if the below LOS, assuming Q4 is only a level 2 hill (instead of the level 3 hill) would be clear. The "thread" goes through the cliff artwork, but does go through the higher-level hex portion of that artwork. We have certain points and their levels identified by the rules and the Q&A. The edge formed by the hex L3 level 3 artwork and the cliff artwork is at level 3, the edge formed by the L2 level 1 artwork and the cliff artwork is level 1, and we know the L2:L3 hexside is considered at level 1. What I don't really know based on the 2 sources (B11.2 and Q&A) is what is the level of the cliff artwork between the hexside and the higher-level edge of the cliff artwork. I swore I saw something about this previously, but now I can't find any Q&A/Clarification.
View attachment 21607

The way I understand it is the dark cliff artwork is a shear cliff that starts along the convoluted layer at the upper level. Dispite the dark symbology is does not block LOS whatsoever.

So to answer the original question, yes it is a continuous slope and yes there is an LOS.