Concealment - those provided at start Q

[Oberst Hausser]

I would like to know what the consensus is to the following:

In a scenario one side is given 20 ? counters.

Do you infer that 1? counter = 1 MMC (and/or SMC) OR 1 ? counter can be "any amount" of SMC/ MMC? Thus there is an expectation of some sort of parity...

Thus in the first case if there were 20 MMC there would be no ? available for dummy ? (if used as to ? even if in LOS) or one could essentially stack up to the legal limit and have however many left as dummies?

Look forward to clearing this up...

 

[Eagle4ty]

If given a number of concealment counters in your OB, you may use them in any fashion you feel fit to do so as long as other rules for concealment/Dummies are complied with. That is to say if your opponent enters from off-board (or if you may set up as if he was entering from off-board), you may use all concealment counters in your OB as Dummies (either 1/2" or 5/8" at your option) and conceal all remaining stacks with "?" counters. If both set up on-board, usually the "?" counters are provided to cover stacks of units most likely to be fired upon or to conceal critical weapon systems with the remainder (if any) to form Dummy stacks. In other words there is no hard and fast rule that mandates you use all the OB provided "?" counters to conceal your initial OB forces.

 

[Philippe D.]

I don't see where there is room for a consensus - there is only what the rules describe, which is pretty clear.

OB-given "?" can be used either to conceal stacks (one per stack, on top of the stack, will conceal the whole stack) or as dummies. Once that is done, if the opponent enters from offboard, any stack that is still unconcealed can be concealed by adding a ? on top (or, if the stack is partly concealed and partly unconcealed, by moving the top ? to cover the whole stack).

So if you have, say, 10 OB-given ?, you might use them to make up to five dummies in separate stacks (total cost 10 ?), or, say, stack them in two large stacks, thus getting a total of 8 dummies. You might use them all in a 10-high stack, thus getting 9 dummies, but that would be a little obvious (though you could then separate them into different stacks later on).

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I would like to know what the consensus is to the following:

In a scenario one side is given 20 ? counters.

Do you infer that 1? counter = 1 MMC (and/or SMC) OR 1 ? counter can be "any amount" of SMC/ MMC? Thus there is an expectation of some sort of parity...

Thus in the first case if there were 20 MMC there would be no ? available for dummy ? (if used as to ? even if in LOS) or one could essentially stack up to the legal limit and have however many left as dummies?

Look forward to clearing this up...

Are you talking about Concealment counters or CLOAKING counters?

 

[jrv]

In a scenario one side is given 20 ? counters.

Do you infer that 1? counter = 1 MMC (and/or SMC) OR 1 ? counter can be "any amount" of SMC/ MMC? Thus there is an expectation of some sort of parity...

Thus in the first case if there were 20 MMC there would be no ? available for dummy ? (if used as to ? even if in LOS) or one could essentially stack up to the legal limit and have however many left as dummies?

For a scenario with 20 x "?" you pull out 20 physical "?" counters. You may set them on the board as desired (within the limits of the other rules of course). A "?" counter placed on top of other units and not itself beneath a "?" is a "concealment counter." A "?" placed beneath another "?" is a "dummy." If you have 20 stacks of real units you may conceal all 20 stacks (i.e. use all the "?" as concealment counters). Or you could conceal 10 real stacks and place 10 dummies under the those concealment counters. Or you could conceal 10 real stacks then create 5 stacks each consisting of a concealment counter and a dummy counter. Or you could conceal 10 real stacks and create a single stack consisting of a concealment counter and 9 dummies. Or you could conceal 10 real stacks with one concealment counter and place 10 "?" on another real stack (i.e. this last stack would consist of any number of real units, 9 dummies and a concealment counter). Obviously this only scratches the surface of the possibilities.

At the end of setup when "free" concealments are placed on units that are out of LOS A12.12, you may not place a free "?" on an ob-given "?", i.e. you may not convert an ob-given concealment counter to a dummy counter by using a free "?".

JR

 

[hongkongwargamer]

.. you can make some of the 5/8 and pretend they are Ordnance or AFVs .. you can use LESS than 20 to mess your opponent up, particularly those who count counters ..

Although I still wonder if you are somehow talking about CLOAKING counters

 

[Oberst Hausser]

No I am ( am) talking about ? counters. The Cloaking have completely different properties.

Yes, so pretty much my thoughts about a parity argument are not valid.

Might as well "complete" this initial question with:

After any given ? counters and after both players have placed their units ON board units that
are placed in ? terrain out of LOS ( city ) then GET a "free" ? counter. This in effect increases ? count.

Lastly, in addition to that the splitting of stacks that move (out of LOS) also get their requisite ? counters.
(Did someone say deployment).

OR in the above case the player "could" use any given ? counters in the city to increase fog of war by directly adding them to
normal stacks...

Thanks for your answers.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

After any given ? counters and after both players have placed their units ON board units that
are placed in ? terrain out of LOS ( city ) then GET a "free" ? counter. This in effect increases ? count.

All non-concealed units out of LOS of the enemy get a free "?" - not just those in Concealment Terrain.

 

[Philippe D.]

All non-concealed units out of LOS of the enemy get a free "?" - not just those in Concealment Terrain.

Actually, they get concealed - they get a free "?" if there are no concealed units in their stack, otherwise they just move under an existing "?". No dummy gain here.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Actually, they get concealed - they get a free "?" if there are no concealed units in their stack, otherwise they just move under an existing "?". No dummy gain here.

Not sure what you mean - but you seem to be saying the same thing as I wrote.

 

[jrv]

No I am ( am) talking about ? counters. The Cloaking have completely different properties.

Yes, so pretty much my thoughts about a parity argument are not valid.

Might as well "complete" this initial question with:

After any given ? counters and after both players have placed their units ON board units that
are placed in ? terrain out of LOS ( city ) then GET a "free" ? counter. This in effect increases ? count.

I think this is an exhaustive list of possible cases for the placement of "free" "?" concealment counters. The stack could be in LOS of an enemy unit, or out-of-LOS. The stack could have zero ob-granted "?" on it, one ob-granted "?" on it or more than one ob-granted "?" (i.e. the top "?" is a concealment counter and the others are dummies).

1) The stack is in LOS and has zero ob-granted "?" on it: no free concealment "?" is placed. No free "?" is placed in LOS.
2) The stack is in LOS and has one ob-granted "?" on it: no free concealment "?" is placed. No free "?" is placed in LOS.
3) The stack is in LOS and has two or more ob-granted "?" on it: no free concealment "?" is placed. No free "?" is placed in LOS.
4) The stack is out-of-LOS and has zero ob-granted "?" on it: a free concealment "?" is placed. Yea!
5) The stack is out-of-LOS and has one ob-granted "?" on it: no free concealment "?" is placed. You can't convert an ob-granted concealment counter to a dummy.
6) The stack is out-of-LOS and has two or more ob-granted "?" on it: no free concealment "?" is placed. You can't convert an ob-granted concealment counter to a dummy.

Although ob-given "?" can only be placed in concealment terrain, as Klas noted "free" "?" can be placed in any terrain (as long as it is out of LOS of enemy units).

Lastly, in addition to that the splitting of stacks that move (out of LOS) also get their requisite ? counters.
(Did someone say deployment).

Splitting a concealed stack (of dummy and/or real units) does not look like deployment. Deployment is done during the RPh with a NTC, and you can't deploy a dummy. Splitting a stack looks like splitting a stack, whether done with real units or dummies.

OR in the above case the player "could" use any given ? counters in the city to increase fog of war by directly adding them to
normal stacks...

I'm not sure what you are asking here, but if you have ob-given "?" you can put more than one on real units, generating a stack that is a mix of dummy and real units. The top "?" will be a concealment counter and the others will be dummies. Sometimes you don't want to leave a position completely unoccupied, but you do want to inflate the enemies impression of the size of the force, e.g. you want to give the impression that a speedbump halfsquad is a full squad with MG and leader.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

Not sure what you mean - but you seem to be saying the same thing as I wrote.

You approved a "free ?", which can easily be understood to mean that if independently of the stack contents, you just add a ? on top of it. If the stack contains, bottom to top, ?, ?, 4-6-7, you don't add a ? at the top (that would be changing a concealment counter into a dummy), instead you move the second ? to the top.

(I had no doubt that you understood the rule correctly, but I thought your answer left room for misinterpretation)