Concealment Question

von Marwitz

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Situation:
You are the scenario Defender. You have one AFV and one dummy counter and want to set up both in the same Location which is concealment terrain. While doing that, you wish to set up the 1/2" dummy beneath the 5/8" AFV and then top it off with a concealment counter before that start of the game for setting up in Concealment terrain.

Background:
You want to miselad your opponent by appearing to be an AFV plus infantry escort or an non-HIP Gun with crew.

Question:
Is that legit?

I don't think so because I do not believe that one may place a Dummy beneath a real unit.


von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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Situation:
You are the scenario Defender. You have one AFV and one dummy counter and want to set up both in the same Location which is concealment terrain. While doing that, you wish to set up the 1/2" dummy beneath the 5/8" AFV and then top it off with a concealment counter before that start of the game for setting up in Concealment terrain.

Background:
You want to miselad your opponent by appearing to be an AFV plus infantry escort or an non-HIP Gun with crew.

Question:
Is that legit?

I don't think so because I do not believe that one may place a Dummy beneath a real unit.


von Marwitz
You are correct in a fashion. You may not "conceal" a dummy unit with a non-OB provided "?" counter (even the 5/8" one placed on the vehicle). Dummies place on top of or beneth real units have noting to do with it. If the 5/8" "?" counter is OB provided, it still cannot be used as the concealment counter for the dummy unit because a 5/8" can only represent a vehicle or a gun as a dummy (A12.11) and I would think this applies as the top concealment marker as well (SWAG). That's my story and I'm sticking to it (unless of course it's overruled).:unsure::)
 

zgrose

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A12.11 says you can not place a single ? under an unconcealed unit "...but a single such counter cannot be placed beneath unconcealed units." So I think that agrees with your conclusion.
 

Eagle4ty

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A12.11 says you can not place a single ? under an unconcealed unit "...but a single such counter cannot be placed beneath unconcealed units." So I think that agrees with your conclusion.
The rub of course is the player uses an OB provided "?" counter to conceal the vehicle, however I believe that "?" counter on the vehicle could not be used as the concealment counter for the 1/2" dummy counter. JMHO though.
 

zgrose

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The rub of course is the player uses an OB provided "?" counter to conceal the vehicle, however I believe that "?" counter on the vehicle could not be used as the concealment counter for the 1/2" dummy counter. JMHO though.
I'm not sure how that changes anything. You're not allowed to put a single ? under the unconcealed AFV in the first place so what you do after that seems moot. If you have 2 ? counters to work with (note the OP says one), then I'm not seeing why you can't have ?/?/AFV at the end of setup and then grow the free ?/?/AFV/? before Turn 1. You're not placing a ? on top of a ?, just above.
 

Brian W

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The rub of course is the player uses an OB provided "?" counter to conceal the vehicle, however I believe that "?" counter on the vehicle could not be used as the concealment counter for the 1/2" dummy counter. JMHO though.
OB granted "?" may be freely exchanged between 1/2" and 5/8".

With only one OB granted ? counter you cannot create a Dummy; you could only use it to conceal a real unit. OB granted "?" counters cannot be placed under a real unit, only on top of a real unit. If you had two OB granted "?" counters, you could place both on top of the AFV and create a dummy out of one of them.
 

Pyth

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Dummies may be placed beneath real unconcealed units. Dummies may not be placed above real unconcealed units. There's a Q&A on this and it also directly addresses zgrose's Q about growing concealment.

A12.11 & A12.12
Can the defender place two or more "?" available for setup beneath a real and unconcealed unit in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart? If yes, may the unconcealed real unit atop the stack of dummies have a "?" not designated by the OB placed on it per A12.12?
A. Yes. No.
A pair of ? may be placed beneath an unconcealed AFV creating the appearance of concealed infantry beneath the AFV. The AFV will not grow concealment under anycase... which will look mighty weird to your opponent if his force is entering from off board.

I'm confident you cannot place a pair of OB granted 1/2" ?s on top of an unconcealed AFV thus creating a dummy rider or passenger on an unconcealed vehicle. This is prohibited by A12.11: "If a hex contains both concealed and unconcealed units, the unconcealed units must be placed on top."

But can you place a pair of ?s on an AFV using one as a 5/8" ? concealing the AFV? This creates a stack top to bottom: 1/2" ? -- 5/8" ? -- Real AFV ... is that a legal stack? I can't find a rule that prohibits it but it's clearly absurd as the 1/2 counter can't possibly represent a real unit. I believe to create a dummy rider you must have a minimum of 3 OB "?" -- one 5/8" to conceal the vehicle and two 1/2" to create the dummy rider.
 

von Marwitz

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A12.11 & A12.12
Can the defender place two or more "?" available for setup beneath a real and unconcealed unit in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart? If yes, may the unconcealed real unit atop the stack of dummies have a "?" not designated by the OB placed on it per A12.12?
A. Yes. No.


This Q&A really nails it:

It needs at least two "?" counters beneath a real vehicle (not just one as in my question), i.e. a 'complete' Dummy.

And the real unit atop cannot gaint a non-designated "?" atop of it.

This means the stack of "OB-designated ?", "real AFV", "non-OB designated ?" of my question is N/A on two accounts.

von Marwitz
 

zgrose

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It does nail it, but I'm wondering why the second Q is no. Seems legit by the rule text.
 

klasmalmstrom

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It does nail it, but I'm wondering why the second Q is no. Seems legit by the rule text.
It can't because then you'd be placing that non-OB-given "?" on top of the to OB-given "?" as well - and that's NA.

A12.12:
"[EXC: only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units and not on top of any previously placed “?”] "
 

zgrose

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It can't because then you'd be placing that non-OB-given "?" on top of the to OB-given "?" as well - and that's NA.

A12.12:
"[EXC: only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units and not on top of any previously placed “?”] "
My suggestion for the 3e bin is, replace “on top” with ”above”

I’m assuming this rule doesnt prevent a squad at level one growing concealment if the squad at ground level in the same hex grows concealment since the one-per is stack based (Location based)?
 

klasmalmstrom

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I’m assuming this rule doesnt prevent a squad at level one growing concealment if the squad at ground level in the same hex grows concealment since the one-per is stack based (Location based)?
Correct - A12.12 says:
"only one non-OB-designated “?” can be placed per stack of units"

and A2.9 says:
"...No enemy stack (i.e., all units/SW/Guns/entrenchment-counters in a given Location)..."
 

Stewart

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In other words, you are exactly right.
Why cant you place a dummy beneath a unit? You'd have to reduce the Number of ? ment by one as the ?ed unit has that on him..

You can move Dummies in with other units, whats the problem with setup?
 

zgrose

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Why cant you place a dummy beneath a unit? You'd have to reduce the Number of ? ment by one as the ?ed unit has that on him..

You can move Dummies in with other units, whats the problem with setup?
Your question is unclear... Why can't you place a single ? counter under a unit? Because the rule says so. You can put 2x ? under a real unit.
 
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