Concealment Loss caused by AFV ending turn in Location

[cooljrunner]

Situation: AFV ends its Mph in same Location as a concealed enemy unit. Upon entry, concealed unit passed its PAATC and therefore retained concealment. Is concealment subsequently lost at end of Mph? A12.42 states concealment is lost "if the vehicle ends the Mph in the Location"; which seems quite clear however A12.42 could be construed as just applying to vehicles in bypass. Not my interpretation, but my opponents. And truth be told, he's usually right. Nonetheless, what is take of the ASL collective?

 

[Vinnie]

Situation: AFV ends its Mph in same Location as a concealed enemy unit. Upon entry, concealed unit passed its PAATC and therefore retained concealment. Is concealment subsequently lost at end of Mph? A12.42 states concealment is lost "if the vehicle ends the Mph in the Location"; which seems quite clear however A12.42 could be construed as just applying to vehicles in bypass. Not my interpretation, but my opponents. And truth be told, he's usually right. Nonetheless, what is take of the ASL collective?

If you enter the location ? is not automatically stripped.
If end in bypass then ? status is lost.

 

[cooljrunner]

Thanks, but what if AFV is not in bypass, merely ended turn in the same location. In our specific case grain, but could be orchard, open ground, etc. Essentially bypass is not possible.

 

[jrv]

A vehicle that ends the MPh in bypass strips concealment [A12.42]. Entry of a location in bypass does not force a PAATC [A12.41], only ending the MPh in bypass (which strips concealment, no PAATC). A vehicle that ends the MPh not in bypass does not strip concealment, although on entry it will force a PAATC [EXC: woods-road].

JR

 

[Doug Leslie]

Your opponent is right. A12.42 is specifically headed as relating to vehicles in bypass. This is confirmed if you look at the Concealment Gain/Loss chart on the relative chapter divider. Basically, a PAATC is only required if the vehicle actually enters the location but, once passed, the concealed unit retains its status unless it decides to perform an action that causes it to lose it. A bypassing AFV does not cause a PAATC but causes loss of concealment in the bypassed obstacle if it ends its MPh in bypass in that hex. Seems odd but such is life!

 

[cooljrunner]

Oh man this game! Thanks guys, appreciate the help and quick responses.

 

[Brian W]

Oh man this game!

Yes it is a very odd, non-intuitive rule that probably got left in there by mistake but we've played it that way for 40 years so it will never be changed.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yes it is a very odd, non-intuitive rule that probably got left in there by mistake but we've played it that way for 40 years so it will never be changed.

Most likely, but if there's a top 10 list, that one's got to be up there.

 

[Cpl Uhl]

I actually won a scenario, against a much better player, by use of this rule. I had a concealed HS in the victory area, needing to stay in GO to win. He drove a tank into the (grain) believing he would cause at least a loss of ? at MPh end then at least CC - Melee - no more GO - win. HS passed entry PAATC to keep ?, survived all Bounding/Adv Fire without losing ?, declined CC vs AFV, maintaining ? and GO and the win. Very satisfying.

Now cue someone smart on this forum to point out something we got wrong....

 

[jrv]

Nothing wrong (I don't think) but the halfsquad can still be attacked in the CCPh by the AFV even if it declines to attack. Surviving that attack also gets added to the Presidential Unit Citation.

JR

 

[ecz]

I think it is the classical double sided decision. I don't think is unfair. Here are in synthesis the good and bad things both players should consider.

as AFV when approaching to concealed Infantry in a bypassable hex:
- enters the hex -> BAD : possible bog/cellar and or penalty in OVR/CC because immobilized. GOOD: strips concealment OR forces PAATC
- ends in bypass -> BAD: bonus for enemy infantry in CC. GOOD: strips concealment 100%, no risk to bog or fall in Cellar

as concealed Infantry in a bypassable hex when the AFV approaches
- AFV enters the hex -> BAD forced to strip concealment or risk PAATC; GOOD can keep Concealment passing PAATC, possible BOG (= better CC odds)
- AFV ends in bypass -> BAD concealment lost at 100%; GOOD -1 CC attack, can avoid PAATC if waits until CC/Ph to attack

 

[Roundhill]

A vehicle that ends the MPh in bypass strips concealment [A12.42]. Entry of a location in bypass does not force a PAATC [A12.41], only ending the MPh in bypass (which strips concealment, no PAATC). A vehicle that ends the MPh not in bypass does not strip concealment, although on entry it will force a PAATC [EXC: woods-road].

JR

This is my rules pet peeve because of the disconnect between results.

 

[jrv]

This is my rules pet peeve because of the disconnect between results.

Many aren't happy with that rule. Many others choose another rule with which to be unhappy. The nice thing about the ASLRB is that there are so many rules from which to choose to be unhappy. Some oddballs even go outside the ASLRB to be unhappy with chess "castling." I mean, what is that supposed to represent?

JR

 

[Chas Argent]

Fixed!

Many aren't happy. Many others choose to be unhappy.

JR