Comparisons between CMN/CMBB/PCO

[Pillar]

Well it's going to be interesting playing the game from this perspective. Without understanding the reasoning it just seemed like an obstacle.

Is this is why we participate in wargame forums despite the heat? The more you learn the more you enjoy your game, and the game makes learning about the subject matter more fun. Does the desire for realism stem from a desire to be able to walk away with actual knowledge?

(Rambles.)

 

[MacGregor]

How many games does one need to play to compare AI?
Maybe someone with both games could make a similar scenario in each and see how the AI play compares. It probably is a lot easier to make a PCO map and scenario that mimics a CMBN scenario than the other way around.

I made a PCO copy of a CMBN map and scenario from Elvis's AAR just to see if I could. The game wasn't very exciting against the AI.

Just saying the AI is a bit better, that's all. :laugh:

As far as game AI go, they all basically suck. However, there is light on the horizon.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/13/pc-ai-sucks-at-civilization-reads-manual-starts-kicking-ass/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Just saying the AI is a bit better, that's all. :laugh:

As far as game AI go, they all basically suck. However, there is light on the horizon.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/13/pc-ai-sucks-at-civilization-reads-manual-starts-kicking-ass/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

How does that help battlefront?

Maybe if they got an AI to skip reading the manual, and go straight to the dev forum and start asking stupid questions, they would have something...

 

[junk2drive]

I wouldn't spend my money on this one. I'd go with Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy. The AI is a bit more intelligent for one off games, the game plays as well or better and it looks better.

My guess is that you are making this up. Prove me wrong by listing the battles and campaigns in PCO that you were able to walk over the AI.

 

[mOBIUS]

My guess is that you are making this up. Prove me wrong by listing the battles and campaigns in PCO that you were able to walk over the AI.

Like I said, it may be worth testing this. In PCO we can make a map that looks like a CBNM map and make a scenario that is like one of from that game. PCO has a few US vehicles and almost all the German ones. Then play the scenario vs the AI in each. A few people have both games. I made a height map and terrain map for the one Elvis did an AAR on. Somebody would have to match the OOBs in scenarios though.

 

[Mad Russian]

Since PCO doesn't really compare to the CM games what does it compare closest to in genre?

TacOp's?

Something else?

What is in PCO's group?

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Elvis]

Like I said, it may be worth testing this. In PCO we can make a map that looks like a CBNM map and make a scenario that is like one of from that game. PCO has a few US vehicles and almost all the German ones. Then play the scenario vs the AI in each. A few people have both games. I made a height map and terrain map for the one Elvis did an AAR on. Somebody would have to match the OOBs in scenarios though.

I would dig seeing a copy of the map.

 

[Mad Russian]

I have several scenarios where I have both the CMBB and PCO version. The maps are now different since I can get "actual" terrain. But the rest pretty much remains the same.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Pillar]

Something else they could stand to benefit from is a more detailed suppression model from the firepower values. I'd like to see, for example, a Kar98 have pretty good firepower and pretty low suppression. It's a strong hitter and an accurate one, and an exposed target should be hurt by the rifle just as much as they would be hurt by an LMG or an assault rifle. Conversely, LMGs should be able to abstract sweeping suppressive fire along player designated or preset arcs without really having any firepower/lethality.

Ok now I see from the standpoint of a game where the player is meant to manage at the platoon level or higher, the above suggestion probably doesn't fit.

 

[dalem]

Ok now I see from the standpoint of a game where the player is meant to manage at the platoon level or higher, the above suggestion probably doesn't fit.

In WWII, platoons are pretty much platoons. In my ever-beta miniatures ruleset (aren't we all each working on a ruleset all the time?) I treat all platoons pretty much the same - there are 3 types:

Light: (U.S. para, all Commonwealth, all "scout/recon", German Volkssturm, Sov early line)

Medium: (U.S. line, Commonwealth armored infantry, most German, most Sov) - this is your "bread and butter platoon"

Heavy: (U.S. armored inf, German PzGrdrs)

And of course, feel free to adjust up or down in type according to local conditions, supply, etc.

-dale

 

[junk2drive]

Just to clarify for Pillar, Kevin whatshisname was owner of Koios. He basically designed the game. He brought on some programmers and modellers to do the work part. With Matrix assisting with artwork and whatever else. Mobius provided the miniatures rules and ballistics and guidance. Mobius is a retired software engineer. Kevin is the one that told me that he didn't care for Steel Panthers and Combat Mission. I don't know why he wanted to make a squad level game with platoon level orders system and phases. If you ever spent time with PCOWS or the old demo, and now play PCO, you can see the influence of CM players in what we have now.

The question now is, for the future, do we want a sandbox game, or a restrictive game or both with options?

 

[Elvis]

Just to clarify for Pillar, Kevin whatshisname was owner of Koios. He basically designed the game. He brought on some programmers and modellers to do the work part. With Matrix assisting with artwork and whatever else. Mobius provided the miniatures rules and ballistics and guidance. Mobius is a retired software engineer. Kevin is the one that told me that he didn't care for Steel Panthers and Combat Mission. I don't know why he wanted to make a squad level game with platoon level orders system and phases. If you ever spent time with PCOWS or the old demo, and now play PCO, you can see the influence of CM players in what we have now.

The question now is, for the future, do we want a sandbox game, or a restrictive game or both with options?

Based on my very limited play with the full PCO game, I would enjoy the "both with options" route.

 

[Pillar]

Just to clarify for Pillar, Kevin whatshisname was owner of Koios. He basically designed the game. He brought on some programmers and modellers to do the work part. With Matrix assisting with artwork and whatever else. Mobius provided the miniatures rules and ballistics and guidance. Mobius is a retired software engineer. Kevin is the one that told me that he didn't care for Steel Panthers and Combat Mission. I don't know why he wanted to make a squad level game with platoon level orders system and phases. If you ever spent time with PCOWS or the old demo, and now play PCO, you can see the influence of CM players in what we have now.

The question now is, for the future, do we want a sandbox game, or a restrictive game or both with options?

Ok, thanks for that.

Some thoughts :hmmm:

If you have to pick one, sandbox is the way to go. The only legitimate obstacle from the customer's point of view is enforcing multiplayer standards, and in the wargaming community that isn't a real issue. You play with people you trust generally and the interest is never on winning at all costs but in seeing what happens. It hardly matters who is controlling which side, as long as they are doing their best.

If you can do both, without a lot of extra programming or workload, go that route. Small gains though.

 

[NUTTERNAME]

My general impression regarding all the 'scab-pickers' that must pontificate endlessly about being 'critics' is this; If you can't get into PCO at some 'fun-level' then maybe you have 'evolved' into something other than a wargamer.

I am not saying the game is the greatest thing ever or that you must love it and make a flaming demonstrative showings regarding the game.

But my impression is that it is a good wargame that is being directed at a hobby I enjoy. The tiresome monotony that people HERE think is a worthwhile addition to the hobby is just plain freakishness. I wouldn't want anything to do with the likes of people that not only waste thier lives endlessly arguing minutia they barely understand than I would want to volunteer to do prison time I didn't have to do.

You are all participating in a very wierd form of human interaction.

 

[Pillar]

My general impression regarding all the 'scab-pickers' that must pontificate endlessly about being 'critics' is this; If you can't get into PCO at some 'fun-level' then maybe you have 'evolved' into something other than a wargamer.

I am not saying the game is the greatest thing ever or that you must love it and make a flaming demonstrative showings regarding the game.

But my impression is that it is a good wargame that is being directed at a hobby I enjoy. The tiresome monotony that people HERE think is a worthwhile addition to the hobby is just plain freakishness. I wouldn't want anything to do with the likes of people that not only waste thier lives endlessly arguing minutia they barely understand than I would want to volunteer to do prison time I didn't have to do.

You are all participating in a very wierd form of human interaction.

Wow, thanks for the kind words.

 

[Redwolf]

How is it that the banned people are all back?

I suggest very seriously to confine them to one thread (analogous to the Peng thread).

This forum was hardly readable as it is.

 

[NUTTERNAME]

This forum was hardly readable as it is.

was...is?

 

[British Tommy]

was...is?

You don't like what we post here so go to another message board and annoy them. Hopefully Geordie can make sure you stay off the CM board.

 

[NUTTERNAME]

Maybe a good idea is for the board to be only readable by registered members?

 

[Elvis]

You don't like what we post here so go to another message board and annoy them. Hopefully Geordie can make sure you stay off the CM board.

Or, as is said on message forums frequently, if you don't like the conversations then start one you do like. Going somewhere else shouldn't be the only option.