Commissars

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
626
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Again, If I upset someone by what I said apologies. I like ASL and have nothing but respect for the designers. And I never said I knew better than anyone... Did I?
No need to apologize, if designers can't handle ANY criticism then stay out of the kitchen...and then there are those that defend everyone that may not need defending....
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
626
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Huh...you'd turn down rallying a Conscript, DM status or not, on an 8??
🙏
If the Commissar can't rally them NO one can...I'm not wasting a Leader on conscripts all game...
The Commissar prevents those extra VP for captured units!@! 🏴‍☠️
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Par for the course. The Russians killed more of their own than the Nazis did. And the Nazis tried damn hard.
Perhaps it could be like one of those multi-player games CDGs with the special rules that allow for a secret win condition.
"You win immediately if Commissar Yuri personally eliminates ten squad equivalents before turn six."
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,597
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
The Russians killed more of their own than the Nazis did.
Do you have precise numbers and reliable sources to support your statement?
Are you speaking of WW2 only or of Bolshevism as a whole?
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Do you have precise numbers and reliable sources to support your statement?
Are you speaking of WW2 only or of Bolshevism as a whole?
Precise numbers? And I suppose you want their names and DoB too?
Screen shots, or it didn't happen?
But then I suppose that it a fair question for some in the modern world that we live in. It took a long time for the Russians to admit their losses in WW2 were far greater than their initially admitted seven million.

Let's just limit it to the actions attributable to Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR. I think it is generally accepted that Stalin's orders led to the deaths of more of his citizens than the actions of Nazi forces, as murderous and genocidal as they were in the east. I recall that the total Russian losses were something like 25-30 million, with up to half of that being attributed to Nazi forces.

Unfortunately I have no precise numbers, or their names, or any screen shots. And now I must therefore wonder if it really happened at all. You'd expect that if it really happened I'd at least be able to name three of them, and I have come up a blank. Sorry.
 

GeorgeBates

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
1,294
Location
Live at Budokan
Country
llJapan
Precise numbers? And I suppose you want their names and DoB too? Screen shots, or it didn't happen?
This is a lame attempt to duck responsibility for a statement that deserves sourced support, or at least a carefully constructed argument. Robin is perfectly within bounds to ask just what it is you are talking about.

The original claim was, "The Russians killed more of their own than the Nazis did. "

So, yes, be specific. If you want to include the officer purges, the Ukraine Famine, the suspected murder of returned Winter War PWs, the gulags and other Soviet crimes that pre- and post-date actual hostilities of 1941 - 1945, you might be right. We'll never know unless you say what it is that you mean.
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
This is a lame attempt to duck responsibility for a statement that deserves sourced support, or at least a carefully constructed argument. Robin is perfectly within bounds to ask just what it is you are talking about.

The original claim was, "The Russians killed more of their own than the Nazis did. "

So, yes, be specific. If you want to include the officer purges, the Ukraine Famine, the suspected murder of returned Winter War PWs, the gulags and other Soviet crimes that pre- and post-date actual hostilities of 1941 - 1945, you might be right. We'll never know unless you say what it is that you mean.
If you think it's a fair question to ask for "precise numbers" when even the best historians like Glantz can only refer to Russian war losses in terms of round millions (at least 29 million??), then you go right ahead. You go right on ahead and just stick with Stalin's stated war losses of seven million. That was Stalin's figure at the end of the war, and he would know, right?

Well, there's your "precise number". That's as good as it gets. And we can accept that every one of those was a result of Nazi action, both direct and indirect, right? Therefore any other deaths beyond that must be due to somebody else. Due to a lack of "precise numbers" it's going to be hard to say so though, isn't it?

As far as I can see, when somebody demands "precise numbers" for that period and place in history it's a lead in to some revisionist angle about how certain leaders actions were "misunderstood" or "misinterpreted" or "forced upon them". And therein is the thin edge of the wedge. No.
 

GeorgeBates

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
1,294
Location
Live at Budokan
Country
llJapan
If you think it's a fair question to ask for "precise numbers" when even the best historians like Glantz can only refer to Russian war losses in terms of round millions (at least 29 million??), then you go right ahead. You go right on ahead and just stick with Stalin's stated war losses of seven million. That was Stalin's figure at the end of the war, and he would know, right?

Well, there's your "precise number". That's as good as it gets...
Ducking the question again. What Stalin, Glantz or anyone else said is irrelevant. It wasn't what you said, and it wasn't what Robin asked.

What do you think the numbers of Soviet casualties in their fight with the Germans were, and how many deaths do you think the Soviet Union inflicted on its own people, and why do you think that?​
People may engage you based on evidence, but nobody will blame you for providing a thoughtful answer. If you'd like to re-consider your original statement, that's fine, too. Flailing, defensive answers like this will just lead people to not take you seriously.
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Ducking the question again. What Stalin, Glantz or anyone else said is irrelevant. It wasn't what you said, and it wasn't what Robin asked.

What do you think the numbers of Soviet casualties in their fight with the Germans were, and how many deaths do you think the Soviet Union inflicted on its own people, and why do you think that?​
People may engage you based on evidence, but nobody will blame you for providing a thoughtful answer. If you'd like to re-consider your original statement, that's fine, too. Flailing, defensive answers like this will just lead people to not take you seriously.
I have already made it clear that demanding "precise numbers" for that period and place in history is pointless. So why take that angle? What is the point of the question, when something that is not possible to determine, is demanded? Clearly it is a red flag for an ulterior motive in asking that. Why?

Now I have already said, quite clearly, "I recall that the total Russian losses were something like 25-30 million, with up to half of that being attributed to Nazi forces."
Did you miss this? Is there something unclear here? Perhaps not.

Estimates for the casualties inflicted by the Nazis are just as unreliable, unless you have some "precise numbers" of your own. In very round terms you might argue that the Nazis only inflicted half of the losses. Okay, I will accept that the Russians killed equally as many of their own, but the weight of the estimates (by those people you say are irrelevant) seem to imply they killed more.

But as I have made it clear, if you want "precise numbers" about the Russians and Stalin, then I want to know what your angle is.

And if you're going to say the work of the professional historians working on the subject matter is irrelevant, then I also have to wonder about your angle in this.
 

GeorgeBates

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
1,294
Location
Live at Budokan
Country
llJapan
I have already made it clear that demanding "precise numbers" for that period and place in history is pointless. So why take that angle? What is the point of the question, when something that is not possible to determine, is demanded? Clearly it is a red flag for an ulterior motive in asking that. Why? ...
Motive? Angle?

Dude, why do you think you are arguing with someone? You may have a case. You are being invited to make it. If you have something constructive to add to your initial assertion, people here are likely to listen. Done until then.
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Motive? Angle?

Dude, why do you think you are arguing with someone? You may have a case. You are being invited to make it. If you have something constructive to add to your initial assertion, people here are likely to listen. Done until then.
I have already made all the case there is to make - You are not going to get "precise numbers" about those Russian casualties, only big round estimates.

You have eliminated any possibility of referencing professional historians who have done research on the primary materials as "irrelevant".

What Stalin, Glantz or anyone else said is irrelevant.
There's not much left after that is there? Not much at all. You've pretty much wiped the board clean and taken away the chalk.
So the only thing you will accept now is primary sources, "accurate numbers", names, dates of birth/death etc? Okay.
Given that I'm not going to go to the archives (or anything else in Russia, now or ever), the best you're going to get is what I can recall of what people like David Glantz have had to say while talking about their work. That's all there is to it. Oh my god, it's oral-history history (and irrelevant, I know, I heard you the first time).
If anybody is interested they can search the internet, I suppose.

And none of that takes away from my suspicion of the motives of people who demand "precise numbers" when talking about Stalin's Russia.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,597
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
PresterJohn, I simply asked the scope of the statement.
Communist regime deaths (for USSR, about 13 million) or WW2?
IIRC, Soviet lost about 20 million in WW2.
Would you think that more were the effect of Stalin rather than Hitler?

You don't need to be mad at me because I simply ask about what you are speaking about.
You anger isn't a positive sign that you stated something well attested.
 

kcole4001

Stray Cat
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
1,582
Reaction score
455
Location
NorthEast
First name
Kevin
Country
llCanada
Counting the purges, famines, and those who perished in the gulags versus those directly killed by the axis forces it's certainly plausible that the bolsheviks may have done more damage than outside forces.
But then you'd have to get into nuance about who is ultimately responsible, when the cut off dates were, etc. for individual cases and end up trying to split hairs. No one has the resources (or motivation) to untangle all of that.
Neither side kept very accurate records, and many records have been destroyed since.
What would be the point of the discussion? To determine who was worse?

Either way it was an enormous tragedy no matter what.
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
834
Reaction score
469
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
PresterJohn, I simply asked the scope of the statement.
Communist regime deaths (for USSR, about 13 million) or WW2?
IIRC, Soviet lost about 20 million in WW2.
Would you think that more were the effect of Stalin rather than Hitler?

You don't need to be mad at me because I simply ask about what you are speaking about.
You anger isn't a positive sign that you stated something well attested.
Quite simply - don't mistake suspicion for anger. You're entitled to your views on the matter, no matter what they happen to be.
I am simply suspicious of somebody who wants "precise numbers" about a period and place in history when even the best historians with access to the primary sources can only wave their hands and generalise the errors in their research and use terms like "at least" for their estimates. I've encountered people like you before, who will simply insist that if you can't give "precise numbers" then your position is wrong, and history has arrived at a misplaced view of "insert idealogical leader of choice".

You can find wide ranges for the numbers for deaths during that period, from Stalin's own spoken number of 7 million, up to numbers like 50 million. Both of these are not commonly accepted as even being close to real, even with the hand waving and large assumptions.

From a limited exposure to some of those with an opinion on the matter, I have offered, "I recall that the total Russian losses were something like 25-30 million, with up to half of that being attributed to Nazi forces." And this is merely merging together opinions of different researchers. At worst all I can say is that it seems likely that the Nazis accounted for no more than half of the losses experienced by the people under Stalin's control. But that can in no way draw upon the "precise numbers" that you require for the position to be acceptable. Sorry.

I accept that without the "precise numbers" you require, my position is untenable.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,597
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Well, it seems that it is the expression "precise numbers" that caused a problem.
I wasn't requiring a count down to the man and my demand was clumsy.
I have no fixed opinion on the topic.
Just a general impression that the Nazis, during WW2, destroyed more Soviets than the latter did vs their own population, especially if you count in the 6 million Jews and hundreds of thousands Gypsies and political enemies eliminated through the extermination camps.
That said, Stalin certainly harmed his people in an extremely grave way - including genocidal measures vs. many populations.
If you take the whole scope of the communist regime, I wouldn't be surprised that the total casualties would be higher than what the Nazis generated - the latter having been in charge twelve years compared to several decades for the communists.
 
Top