Commando Schenke Question re: Engineers

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#1
Okay, a couple of us new players are about to start Commando Schenke. I have reviewed the flamethrower, demolition charge, and fortified building rules.

One thing I noticed; one of the scenario notes talks about the German assault engineers, and mentioned that Chapter H notes should be reviewed on the assault engineers.

But when I look at those notes, I do not see anything special about the engineers that is not already on the counter. The information really only seems relevant with respect to design your own scenarios where you have to know about the increased purchase price.

Am I missing something, or is the intent of that note just to show that they are elite, can carry flamethrowers and demolition charges, and have smoke capacity? Is there anything else I need to know about them (other than that they kick ass pretty generally)?
 

Jazz

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#2
Okay, a couple of us new players are about to start Commando Schenke. I have reviewed the flamethrower, demolition charge, and fortified building rules.

One thing I noticed; one of the scenario notes talks about the German assault engineers, and mentioned that Chapter H notes should be reviewed on the assault engineers.

But when I look at those notes, I do not see anything special about the engineers that is not already on the counter. The information really only seems relevant with respect to design your own scenarios where you have to know about the increased purchase price.

Am I missing something, or is the intent of that note just to show that they are elite, can carry flamethrowers and demolition charges, and have smoke capacity? Is there anything else I need to know about them (other than that they kick ass pretty generally)?
The big effect is the +3 (I think) that is added to the infantry smoke exponent on the counter. A squad that had a smoke exponent of 2 would become a smoke exponent of 5....wich means you can dang near have infantry smoke on demand.....a biggie for this scenario.

Just remember, if the German player prep fires, he's lost....
 
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#3
The big effect is the +3 (I think) that is added to the infantry smoke exponent on the counter. A squad that had a smoke exponent of 2 would become a smoke exponent of 5....wich means you can dang near have infantry smoke on demand.....a biggie for this scenario.

Just remember, if the German player prep fires, he's lost....
+2 smoke it looks like, but yeah, that seems to be it. Smoke is still fascinating to me. It is such a double edged sword (due to the self-hindrance along with the slow down in movement it causes) that it is an interesting exercise in figuring out when and where to place it. Hell, I had some issues in Fighting Withdrawal as the Finns due to the smoke that was naturally generated from the game start fires (well, a 12 on the wind change roll didn't help matters there either).

I figured that this one would be all about working in those flamethrowers and demo charges (with their short range). With that fortified building, anything else is just going to be plinking away at a pointless +4, and the FTs and DCs that can actually do some hurting (and pave the way for control) by definition need to be up close (meaning they need to move).

I'm not actually sure which side I'm going to be playing yet. If I'm German, I'm basically going to be thinking about how I want to screen my close work guys with some skirmishers, to maximize their survivability while pushing in close, moving quickly enough yet not so aggressively as to have no punch left when I get there. If I'm Russian, I imagine it is going to be figuring out how much screen versus how much building defense, and when to let go of a position to regroup further back. Basically a time eating exercise.

Either way, it occurs to me that I am also going to have to review the building control and mop up rules as well.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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#4
The big effect is the +3 (I think) that is added to the infantry smoke exponent on the counter. A squad that had a smoke exponent of 2 would become a smoke exponent of 5....wich means you can dang near have infantry smoke on demand.....a biggie for this scenario.
It is only +2 - which is still good as the 8-3-8 have 3 to begin with.
Note also that it only applies to squads - not half-squads (since they can't place Inf. Smoke anyway).

H1.22:
"In addition, the SMOKE exponent of an Assault Engineer is increased by two (even if it were "0")."
 

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#5
It is only +2 - which is still good as the 8-3-8 have 3 to begin with.
Note also that it only applies to squads - not half-squads (since they can't place Inf. Smoke anyway).

H1.22:
"In addition, the SMOKE exponent of an Assault Engineer is increased by two (even if it were "0")."
How embarrassing.....I know it was only 2. I was just testing you guys.... Very good point on the HS. They have NO smoke exponent (not just a 0).

The FT/DC are definitely the pry-bar you need to get into the fort building, but don't forget assault fire and mutl-hex fire groups with the 8-3-8.

Adjacent 8-3-8 shooting in Adv Fire shoots with 8 FP (or 9 FP for those that use the apostate IIFT), 4 FP (5 FP) at range 2-3, which when you throw a few of those together into one attack ain't that shabby of a shot. Remember, if you pin the jokers in the Fort building, you can advance in for CC.
 
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#7
Don't know if threre are any vehicles in this scenario, but assault engineers also get a modifier when in CC with an AFV.
I did not know that (and I don't see it in that Chapter H cite), but it is okay, as there are no AFVs in that one. Just all infantry baby, perfect for my little noobie abilities.
 

klasmalmstrom

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#8
I did not know that (and I don't see it in that Chapter H cite), but it is okay, as there are no AFVs in that one. Just all infantry baby, perfect for my little noobie abilities.
It is in rule A11.5 CC vs A VEHICLE::

"...The CCV of a squad is 5, a Crew is 4, a HS is 3, and a SMC is 2. The CCV is modified by +1 for an Assault Engineer, -1 for an Inexperienced unit, and +1 for a SMC combining with the main attacking unit in the same attack...."
 

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#9
It is in rule A11.5 CC vs A VEHICLE::

"...The CCV of a squad is 5, a Crew is 4, a HS is 3, and a SMC is 2. The CCV is modified by +1 for an Assault Engineer, -1 for an Inexperienced unit, and +1 for a SMC combining with the main attacking unit in the same attack...."
Hmmm... now that's one thing I never realized. I always thought the Assault Engineers simply had a -1 DRM vs. AFV in thier CC attack. So, they get that
+1 to thier defense as well?


:surprise:
 

klasmalmstrom

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#10
Hmmm... now that's one thing I never realized. I always thought the Assault Engineers simply had a -1 DRM vs. AFV in thier CC attack. So, they get that +1 to thier defense as well?
An AFV attacks with all applicable weapons vs. the CCV of the unit(s) it attacks. I assume that it is vs. the CCV that the attacked unit(s) would have if they attacked the AFV.

Rule A11.62 11.62 AFV CC ATTACKS vs INFANTRY:
"All such FP is used to form Odds ratios vs the defender's CCV and uses the CCT black Kill Numbers, and is never increased due to any condition—although it can be halved due to Motion/or vs concealed units/by Pinned units (cumulatively), or negated (see Shock; C7.42 and Stun; D5.34). A defender's CCV cannot be reduced below 1; treat any condition that would do so as a CC DRM instead."

Rule A11.51 11.5 CC vs A VEHICLE:
"The CCV of a squad is 5, a Crew is 4, a HS is 3, and a SMC is 2. The CCV is modified by +1 for an Assault Engineer, -1 for an Inexperienced unit, and +1 for a SMC combining with the main attacking unit in the same attack. A CCV subject to any form of halving FP penalty (such as being pinned) is reduced by one for each such penalty."

So an Assault Engieer squad would have a CCV of 5+1 and an AE half-squad 3+1. If they are e.g. pinned it goes down to 5 and 3 resp.
 
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#11
Okay, a couple of us new players are about to start Commando Schenke. I have reviewed the flamethrower, demolition charge, and fortified building rules.

One thing I noticed; one of the scenario notes talks about the German assault engineers, and mentioned that Chapter H notes should be reviewed on the assault engineers.

But when I look at those notes, I do not see anything special about the engineers that is not already on the counter. The information really only seems relevant with respect to design your own scenarios where you have to know about the increased purchase price.

Am I missing something, or is the intent of that note just to show that they are elite, can carry flamethrowers and demolition charges, and have smoke capacity? Is there anything else I need to know about them (other than that they kick ass pretty generally)?
No one has mentioned (or maybe only obliquely) the Assault Engineer's most important weapon: assault fire. In the Adv. Fire Phase, you add +1 FP to each AE squad's modified FP, which makes them pretty powerful (when stacked or as a FG) after they've moved. Don't Prep Fire with these guys, though you might find some use in this scenario for Opportunity Fire, hoping to reveal some concealed Russians during movement.

Is this the Tactiques version of Schenke? On the surface, this looks like a piece of cake for the Germans, with all those FTs and DCs, but it's actually very difficult, when you consider the Fortified building rule: you can't enter into CC in the building unless the squad is pinned or broken. Meaning you must save your DCs and FTs for a building assault. Meaning you must be close to the building for several turns (not just the last one). Meaning, as Jazz suggested, do not Prep Fire with any unit for at least two turns. I made that mistake and paid for it by having only one turn to assault the building, which wasn't enough to clear it.
 

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#12
Assault fire is not specially linked to Assault Engineers, but to units which have their FP underlined.
You can have Assault Engineers without assault fire capability (e.g. British 458s) and non assault engineers with assault fire (e.g. US squads).
 

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#13
Hmmm... now that's one thing I never realized. I always thought the Assault Engineers simply had a -1 DRM vs. AFV in thier CC attack. So, they get that
+1 to thier defense as well?


:surprise:


Huh....I've always played it as Pete mentions, but Klas has a point. The rule as written does not have these as DRM, but as modifications to the CCV.

Kinda like the ITT CH issue with range modifying the required TH number and not the final roll itself.

Interesting....
 
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#14
No one has mentioned (or maybe only obliquely) the Assault Engineer's most important weapon: assault fire. In the Adv. Fire Phase, you add +1 FP to each AE squad's modified FP, which makes them pretty powerful (when stacked or as a FG) after they've moved. Don't Prep Fire with these guys, though you might find some use in this scenario for Opportunity Fire, hoping to reveal some concealed Russians during movement.

Is this the Tactiques version of Schenke? On the surface, this looks like a piece of cake for the Germans, with all those FTs and DCs, but it's actually very difficult, when you consider the Fortified building rule: you can't enter into CC in the building unless the squad is pinned or broken. Meaning you must save your DCs and FTs for a building assault. Meaning you must be close to the building for several turns (not just the last one). Meaning, as Jazz suggested, do not Prep Fire with any unit for at least two turns. I made that mistake and paid for it by having only one turn to assault the building, which wasn't enough to clear it.
Thank you. Assault fire is beautiful. I'm probably overly concerned with that +4 TEM for the building; I know by definition that I am going to have to get close in to effectively wipe out an entryway in order to get in there to get to CC. I imagine I won't be able to stand back and plink away; just too low of odds that it is going to clear out the space needed to get in. Likewise, I assume the Soviet role is all about delay; how much screen to put up to keep the Germans from getting in close for the maximum number of turns, without throwing too much away to successfully make that last defense of the building proper.

The version I'm playing is the Beyond Valor 3rd edition version; I understand that some people thought there were balance issues with earlier versions, and I figured I might as well play the latest version of the scenario.

The nice thing about playing is that it makes me question and relearn all of the things I think I know but can not be certain of; even small things like whether there is a building TEM for interior fire within a building (e.g from one hex of the fortified building to another on interior lines). My recollection is pretty comfortably that there is, simply to show the difficulties of intrabuilding fire and fighting around walls, doors, furniture, etc., but I always feel like I'm looking it up "to be sure."

I suppose one other thing I'll have to think about if I end up rolling to play the Germans (we always just roll to see who plays which side, unless we are intentionally doing a rematch or "best points out of two games" type of thing) is whether to go with demolition charge breaches or just direct attacks with them. I imagine you go for at least one breach, just to permit the CC in building without having to have something pinned down on the other side.
 
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