CMx2 Market Garden was almost *cancelled*?

Redwolf

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Nothing should need to change for that. For instance, if you only have the base Normandy game and put a CW scenario in your scenario folder, that scenario will not show up when you go select what battle you want to play. Similarly, when playing a QB the only options, for units, dates etc..., that you have are for the ones available in the game and modules you own.
Really gotta be doing better than that, in-game. There should be a way to tell from the outside, with a commandline tool, so that scenario depots and the like can display that information.
 

Elvis

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Really gotta be doing better than that, in-game. There should be a way to tell from the outside, with a commandline tool, so that scenario depots and the like can display that information.
Really? Why? Don't any depots out there have scenarios listed by type? It's been a very very long time but was there some sort of designation between CMBO scenarios and CMAK?
 

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I think all existing Scenario Depot type systems require someone to manually enter all data about scenarios first.
It is not done automatically.
 

Elvis

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I think all existing Scenario Depot type systems require someone to manually enter all data about scenarios first.
It is not done automatically.
Isn't that the way it has always been? From the Scenario Depot to the Repository, scenarios are listed by what game they are for. The automatic part comes in if you put a scenario into the scenario folder for a game that you don't own. It won't appear in the list of battles, in game, you can chose when deciding what to play. Now if you could drop a scenario you can't play into the folder and it appears as an available battles, then you'd have somefink that needs to be changed.
 

slm

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Yes, that's how it has been, but (not sure if I understood correctly) I thought Redwolf was suggesting that there should be a utility program which could scan which scenario files you have in Scenarios folder. It could read scenario details from these files like scenario name, map dimensions and which modules it uses. And then write this information to a database (or something), so that Depot admins etc. would NOT have to manually type all this data.
 
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Elvis

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Yes, that's how it has been, but (not sure if I understood correctly) I thought Redwolf was suggesting that there should be a utility program which could scan which scenario files you have in Scenarios folder. It could read scenario details from these files like scenario name, map dimensions and which modules it uses. And then write this information to a database (or something), so that Depot admins etc. would NOT have to manually type all this data.

Hmmmm....no idea how much or little programming time would be involved with that but it hardly seems worth it. A scenario designer normally does a write up for their scenario anyway, so including what game it's for doesn't seem like much. Plus, the third party host site would then have to include software that detects what the scenario is made for. I can't see how it is worth the host site or BFCs time to do this since the method that's been around for 13 years has worked fine without it.
 

Redwolf

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No I specifically replied to finding out which modules or packs are needed for a given scenario.

That is new since CMx1 and just got a whole lot more complicated. I also don't see how the scenario designer can really tell given that his machine has a random bunch of stuff loaded and how is he going to know which ones are actually required to run the thing? Even if it wasn't for that, it's too easy to screw up. So a scenario depot should be able to safely tell on the uploaded file.
 

Elvis

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No I specifically replied to finding out which modules or packs are needed for a given scenario.

That is new since CMx1 and just got a whole lot more complicated. I also don't see how the scenario designer can really tell given that his machine has a random bunch of stuff loaded and how is he going to know which ones are actually required to run the thing? Even if it wasn't for that, it's too easy to screw up. So a scenario depot should be able to safely tell on the uploaded file.

I suppose it could happen. Not using the editor much, I'm not sure what a designer would have to to use CW only units in Holland, for instance, and not realize they did it. I don't remember any people having problems along these lines with CMSF. Considering how small scenario files are, and that the host site would have to provide a decoder or somefink to figure out what file needs what games, it seems simpler to just leave things the way they are. Where the scenario designer says "this game requires you have X and Y to play"
 

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If this is not done automatically in Scenario Editor, scenario author could easily miss some modules/packs, because I think Packs can include also new map features. Not just new units like modules so far.
 

Elvis

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If this is not done automatically in Scenario Editor, scenario author could easily miss some modules/packs, because I think Packs can include also new map features. Not just new units like modules so far.
You guys are right. It is possible to inadvertently mix elements from different modules and forget that you've done. I suspect it won't be a problem but time will tell. And again, it would beg the question of how a third party hosting site would create a system that reads and sorts the files automatically.
 

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There is one application in BF Repository (I think) which can read *some* data from scenarios, but not all. Can't remember its name anymore.
I once wrote an app a bit like Scenario Depot where it's easy to search CM scenarios based on various criteria like battle type and modules needed.
Data entry was quite a task.
 

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Just in case you were confused...

Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM
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A reminder of how things work regarding features:

Significant new features are NOT put into Modules as a rule. They are reserved for Base Games (1st release of a Family) and Upgrades (which update older Families to current standards). There are exceptions, of course.

The reason for this is every person playing within a Family must be using the same version. So if something is introduced into a Module that means everybody gets it. Not only within a specific Family, but often across all Families. In other words... nobody is explicitly paying us for those improvements.

Despite that we *always* include new features, for free, with Modules and Patches. So you will see some rolled out with the Market Garden Module first, then everybody else soon after. Which is why the few people who continue to gripe about us charging people for minor feature improvements are flat out wrong.

Major feature improvements cost us significant resources (time and money) to develop. Call us selfish, but we do expect to be paid for such work. And that's why we don't release them for free, as happens to things which first appear in Modules.

Bug fixes are, of course, free for everybody all the time. Though sometimes new features "fix" old problems, but that's not the same thing.

We will release more info about what is in Market Garden very soon. Modules vary in terms of how many of this or that they might have, but we always make sure there's a balance of new things which, in total, balances it with other releases. Market Garden is not an exception. If you can't conceive of how that's possible, based on the little information we're released so far, then give us the benefit of the doubt until more information is available. That would be the sensible thing to do given our great track record of under promising and over delivering.

Steve
Under promising? Over delivering? What does he use for a calender? A sundial?
 

NUTTERNAME

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Some 'news'? Or, perhaps, it is the current state of "the ever-evolving CM product line"? In any case....

Not a good assumption First, the timeframe for the entire Normandy Family stops at September. Nothing introduced after September is being included now or in the future. The next Western Front Family takes things from October through the final days of the war.

Second, Market Garden is really and truly focused on Market Garden and not the entire front. Future Packs will expand the Normandy Family's component pieces for the entire June-September timeframe. The first Pack is almost definitely going to contain the much requested "Funnies" and oddball stuff that the Germans threw at the Allies in the early days of the landings. Which ones specifically are yet to be determined.

Steve
 

NUTTERNAME

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Just how far out of touch is Steve with his own customers? well, check out his post right after people have been inquiring about these supposed free patches....


#72
Old Today, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Oddball_E8 View Post
Point was that engine updates are usually part of a patch and not a module.
Except when they're not. See GL.

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EDIT: also, here is the 1.11 patch...
Ach. Indeed. I meant the 1.12 patch that fixes mortars and MGs to the same state as the rest of the game...
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#73
Old Today, 12:03 PM
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It's always nice to know at least one or two of you are potential buyers of the stuff we're working on

Every single release we've ever put out has some improvements, often significant ones, to the game itself. Those are then wrapped up and released as free patches to others. Market Garden is not going to be an exception to this.

One reason we don't pre-announce such improvements is that people tend to, uhm, not handle it well If we say Feature A is going to be in we immediately get slammed with questions/demands about hundreds of other possible features (including some that are ridiculous, historically wrong, or are actually already in the game). You'd think with all that fun being just a post away we'd be chomping at the bit to experience it yet again, but oddly enough we're not. So best to save it for release notes and leave it there.

When you think about it we're saying that a Module, and later Packs, have their value based on the unique content they provide. Since game improvements are not inherently part of these things, they should play no special role in deciding if any one Module or Pack is worth purchasing. It should be a separate evaluation. If you don't like the game then who cares how many tanks or maps are in a Module or Pack? If you like the game and don't think there's enough stuff in a Pack or Module, then why would you buy it?

But that's just me... being all practical minded about this

Steve
Glad Steve feels he is so practical. Others may claim his is oblivious. But, I suppose it works for him, just ignore requests and blather on about what he thinks is amusing or helpful. Why deal with reality if you can just ignore it and put it off till some future date? Why not just take pre-orders and full payment and not tell them anything? Why not just keep misusing the word 'Features' when he has said so many times that modules don't have Features (or is it just BigFeatures and maybe not that many smallfeatures?)
 
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NUTTERNAME

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[Here is the quote...

Quick answer about the Footpath terrain, new buildings, new bridges, and other Editor improvements. These will be available to use anywhere within the Normandy timeframe to your heart's content. However, if it is something that involves models/textures then you'll only be able to use those scenarios if you have Market Garden. For example, you could make a Normandy beachead scenario using only the units found in the Base Game, but if you put in Footpath it would mark the scenario as only useable by Market Garden owners. That's because the artwork and code necessary to use them is embedded in Market Garden.

50mm mortars are used by a variety of poor quality German forces. Some are so poor quality that they don't even get the that

Steve
So, I suppose one would have to have some sort of patch to CMBN to do what he is talking about. How else could someone make a scenario that uses footpaths and they don't have MG?
 

NUTTERNAME

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You can't. That is what he is saying.
I agree. You can't. But that is not exactly what I read.

If he is talking about a CMBN+MG owner/designer, then he is saying that the designs they make can be both backwards compatible to CMBN owners, but not if the scenarios include 'MG-Proprietary' footpaths, etc. This is really getting petty and stupid. Supposedly, the base game is the driver for the family. It has the Features and such. Modules were supposedly the domain of TOE and such. They really think something like a footpath is generic to just the module?

In the case of people with 'CMBN Only' wanting to design Normandy scenarios that use formations and terrain that are not included in CMBN, well that seems they are not capable to do that. There will probably be no patch for it.

I suppose this backwards compatability might also need the CMBN 'base' game to be patched to the MG level?

Seemingly, 'Packs' can be used across the whole June to September 'CMBN' time-frame? Or will they limit the individual afv to certain weeks or months?
 
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Elvis

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Correct. There will be no patch to allow base game-only users to use footpaths (or any other new terrrai features fr Market Garden). They are among the things you buy when you purchase the module. If I'm not mistaken, this will be the first module to include completely new terrain.
 
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