CMx2 Market Garden annoucement, and my comments on the "master maps" concept

Redwolf

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Announcement is out:
http://www.battlefront.com/community/announcement.php?f=&a=657
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=326&Itemid=558

Says release will be "late summer". Sounds good.


Now, the interesting part is this:

The info puts emphasis on the new pre-made maps, very large maps that scenario designers are expected to reuse (as in parts of them) instead of rolling their own.

I feel ambivalent about this. I would have much preferred to give the user more editing power, either using more powerful tools like cut and paste of terrain or via map im/export to get in real word data, or something you do in your own editor, or Panzer Command's editor.

I realize that this is a further step in keeping customers in the confinement of what a module represents. I don't have a problem with this at all since map making hasn't been made impossible and I sure want BFC to earn more money to make more games.

It just irks me that BFC moves more and more away from being a universally useful tool that has a useful vehicle and unit database and can be used to interchange data such as maps with other games or programs. It's a further lock in.

I am also afraid that sooner or later the amount of new material available to customers isn't enough to make them keep paying. Right now BFC seems to do OK with what presumably are maps done with a lot of sweat of beta testers and other people who provide this to BFC for a free copy of the game. I see nothing wrong with the latter part, it is just that these scissors can close and put the game in a bad situation. If or when free labor for map making the hard way becomes unavailable in the future you can't easily switch back to outsiders casually making maps. Because no time has been invested in editing tools.
 
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Thomm

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I would have much preferred to give the user more editing power, either using more powerful tools like cut and paste of terrain or via map im/export to get in real word data, or something you do in your own editor, or Panzer Command's editor.
But these things have absolutely nothing to do with each other! The maps are not made by Charles or Phil. Not a single second of coding time was used on creating these master maps. They are just big standard maps.

It is fair to say that you want better editor tools. But mixing it up with the master maps (which are certainly not created by coders) does not make much sense.

Best regards,
Thomm
 

NUTTERNAME

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But these things have absolutely nothing to do with each other! The maps are not made by Charles or Phil. Not a single second of coding time was used on creating these master maps. They are just big standard maps.

It is fair to say that you want better editor tools. But mixing it up with the master maps (which are certainly not created by coders) does not make much sense.

Best regards,
Thomm
I don't buy that "single-second of coding" party-line. Seems Elvis is also one to sling these coding time lengths too.

Since these new 'foot-paths' are included, as well as the Bridges, with their limitations, and it has been said that things like 'foot-paths' are specific to the Market Garden product; I would be suspicious if not a few seconds of coding time has been put into the product 'lockdown'. In simple terms, Steve has said that a map that includes foot-paths would need to have the Market Garden module to use the map. He said the word 'embedded' is the reason. Now, disregarding how this would be possible in the first place (I suppose another promised patch???), I suspect that they are also trying to headlock maps as well as formations and anything else they can to limit long term product playability. Of course, the 'Upgrade' promise cures that and paints them to be the "Good Guys".

Sorry. I just don't believe this stuff isn't a thought out means to stifle long term use of the products. And the promises are stacking up. CMFI patch? Can't wait? Then buy the module Gustav! CMBN patch? can't wait? Then buy Market Garden Module. If they pull this crap again with the MG module, that is drag their feet on patching previous 'Family Starters', then even the most fawning fanboys are going to get hep to these kind of kicks.
 

Redwolf

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But these things have absolutely nothing to do with each other! The maps are not made by Charles or Phil. Not a single second of coding time was used on creating these master maps. They are just big standard maps.

It is fair to say that you want better editor tools. But mixing it up with the master maps (which are certainly not created by coders) does not make much sense.

Best regards,
Thomm
I'm in complete agreement with what you say.

It is just that I see the general direction of CM getting into a system that, in practice, not theory, has a very sandboxed feel.

Obviously master maps, although not made by Charles, will relieve the pressure on making better tools for outsiders, and Charles has more other things to do. In addition there are obvious business reason why a sandboxed feel within the maps of a specific theater section (or whatever a module represents) might be considered better to a person who wants to do sales through restrictions, not game mechanics or graphical progress.

I also think that dedicated map makers such as beta testers need different tools than a larger group of people dedicating less time each. For example I can't imagine that the master maps are being made with tools that allow different people to work on different parts of the map, do they?
 

NUTTERNAME

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Maybe there will be a new crop of 'Modders'. Map-Modders.

I just read there will be no Campaign for the CW airborne drops in Arnhem? Is this right? maybe they feel if they do the 'groundwork' (maps) then this will prime the pump for scenario designers to fill the void post release of the product? Actually, in my opinion, the more I read about the battle, the less I think the system can model it.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Hopefully, they find a better way of modeling conscript and raw recruits. look at these weenies that were captured early in the battle...

View attachment 42242
 

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[video=youtube;JCaiYzIFmVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaiYzIFmVs[/video]

The top rated comment there says it all.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Announcement is out:
http://www.battlefront.com/community/announcement.php?f=&a=657
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=326&Itemid=558

Says release will be "late summer". Sounds good.


Now, the interesting part is this:

The info puts emphasis on the new pre-made maps, very large maps that scenario designers are expected to reuse (as in parts of them) instead of rolling their own.

I feel ambivalent about this. I would have much preferred to give the user more editing power, either using more powerful tools like cut and paste of terrain or via map im/export to get in real word data, or something you do in your own editor, or Panzer Command's editor.

I realize that this is a further step in keeping customers in the confinement of what a module represents. I don't have a problem with this at all since map making hasn't been made impossible and I sure want BFC to earn more money to make more games.

It just irks me that BFC moves more and more away from being a universally useful tool that has a useful vehicle and unit database and can be used to interchange data such as maps with other games or programs. It's a further lock in.

I am also afraid that sooner or later the amount of new material available to customers isn't enough to make them keep paying. Right now BFC seems to do OK with what presumably are maps done with a lot of sweat of beta testers and other people who provide this to BFC for a free copy of the game. I see nothing wrong with the latter part, it is just that these scissors can close and put the game in a bad situation. If or when free labor for map making the hard way becomes unavailable in the future you can't easily switch back to outsiders casually making maps. Because no time has been invested in editing tools.
I actually don't have anything against this besides the delay it may have introduced into the release of the product. This is mostly for my own selfish reasons since I have periods of time where weather/business/home-life etc. are overwhelming and other periods where I have some free time.

In any case this seems like what they are including:
Master Maps!

The 7 "master maps" are huge maps, historically accurate, detailed and thoroughly researched, depicting the main areas around the bridges where most of the fighting happened:

Oosterbeek
Johana Hoeve
Arnhem Road Bridge
Oosterhout ( north of Nijmegen)
Nijmegen
West Nijmegen
Elst
These master maps will help scenario designers in creating their own scenarios without the burden of having to create the maps from scratch. The maps can be cut to encompass smaller areas for individual battles.

As a ex-military cartographer, I would think this would be a use of some sort of scanning of historical maps and perhaps even using flight photos to create these CM maps. To do this just using the customer included tools would seem overwhelming. So, to address your question, there may be internal tools that they use to create these maps. And I have no problem with that. The product has been advertised as a very narrow focus of modeling. Of course, these maps might also be used as a basis for Normandy type battles if modified further. I am not against this line of development as much as it might impinge on delivering product. If these maps were made just using customer-available tools, well that is something else.

Now, for something as vast as Bagration, the inclusion of maps will be interesting.
 

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Good point (yeah, I unblocked you). This is the first thing I've heard that makes me interested in buying the module. JonS and Bil H and George Mc and their other volunteer A-list content guys have now had enough time on target with this engine to have rounded the corner on quality content (not dissing the prior efforts, just some was uneven). OTOH, the AI is still pretty hopeless at house to house fighting, so we'll see what they can do with the triggerless on-the-clock limitations.
 
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