CM Normandy screenshot released

Redwolf

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Strange comment on die rolls. Is there no shell dispersion caused by gun wear, heat, air temperature and density, gun droop, shell imperfections or powder consistency? Isn't that as random as a die roll?

Can the players choose to hit any polly they want? I'll choose to fire my Sherman and hit one of the pollys on the gun of the King Tiger and take it out.
The point here is:

CMx1 model:

1) decide whether the tank is hit or not (dice roll <==). That's all the computation done with the actual shot

2) if hit, determine side that is hit (font, side etc)

3) if (example) front, then roll a dice to give (approx) 45% chance to hit the turret, 35% upper hull, 20% lower hull (dice roll <==)

4) if armor hit has special properties do them. For example, if a "curved" surface is hit do a dice roll <== to determine actual angle

5) add a dice roll <== for the 3% weak spot penetration

6) look up armor strength at angles at spot hit, decide whether it's a penetration

So 3-4 dice rolls.


CMx2 model:

1) The 3D model determines which armor plate is hit (and hence you know how thick it is), and you grab the angle right off the 3D model.

2) Apply other random stuff analog to weak spot penetration.

Somehow Steve mistakes this for "no dice roll".

Which is nonsense, since of course determining the location of the hit is, in the end, the result of a dice roll, and the 2) factors better have more dice rolls and without a "curved" like model you won't go far in WW2.

So the dice just rolls in a different place.

Overall I found the model in CMx1 to be perfectly adequate with the exception of hitting moving vehicles with a trajectory right through fixed obstacles (because whether it's a hit or not is determined at one early point in time and Charles didn't code in a check to see whether there's still LOS at the hit time).
 

mOBIUS

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The point here is:
CMx2 model:

1) The 3D model determines which armor plate is hit (and hence you know how thick it is), and you grab the angle right off the 3D model.
Picking the point that is hit would be random would it not? I've seen one game that produces a trajectory where the shell will travel. This is randomly selected in a cone of dispersion.

Also, no scientific formula can compute the armor penetration of ogive bodies for angles greater than 80 degrees.
 

Redwolf

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Picking the point that is hit would be random would it not? I've seen one game that produces a trajectory where the shell will travel.
Exactly.

This is randomly selected in a cone of dispersion.
It's the only thing you can do. Yet somehow Steve wants us make believe that just because CMx2 uses the 3D model there is no random pick (dice throw) anywhere.

Also, no scientific formula can compute the armor penetration of ogive bodies for angles greater than 80 degrees.
All armor penetration formulas are pulled out of thin air. Nobody even did a finite elements analysis. Games use something that fits well enough.
 

Rocket-Man

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All armor penetration formulas are pulled out of thin air. Nobody even did a finite elements analysis. Games use something that fits well enough.
Actually, there has been a lot of work done to better understand armor penetration over the years. A lot of empirical formulas were developed before computers became prevalent as can be seen in the book Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition.

FEA work has also been done on armor penetration, but it has been done for modern ammo/armor combos. I don't know of anybody who has done good FEA work on WWII armor penetrations.
 
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dalem

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Steve used to brag about the fidelity of the armor model and how they consulted with various experts on it. I have never seen a game developer trash his own product like he does.
Yeah. No sense of history, style, or class. He's a real buffoon.

-dale
 

MKSheppard

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Steve said:
the general difference between CMx1 armor modeling and CMx2 is that CMx1 was quite abstract (i.e. dice rolls) while CMx2's is far more direct.
Okay, Steve is a ****ing liar.

From BFC's own website:

CMBB Overview page

Advanced and updated armor penetration algorithms where even the amount and density of the armor *plug* that is pushed into a vehicle from a penetration is now calculated and modeled.
 

mOBIUS

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Actually, there has been a lot of work done to better understand armor penetration over the years. A lot of empirical formulas were developed before computers became prevalent as can be seen in the book Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition.

FEA work has also been done on armor penetration, but it has been done for modern ammo/armor combos. I don't know of anybody who has done good FEA work on WWII armor penetrations.
Yes, you are quite right. There has been a number of formulas. The DeMarr which 'Rexford', Lorrin Bird used a mod of for CM. Also, for naval artillery Nathan Okun has done quite a bit of work on.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm
I recoded his program to work with windows and noticed that they don't carry much beyond 75 degrees. Also actual armor test results have been obtained and found that they vary from 6% to 16% from these formula values. ..so...
 

Redwolf

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Yes, you are quite right. There has been a number of formulas. The DeMarr which 'Rexford', Lorrin Bird used a mod of for CM. Also, for naval artillery Nathan Okun has done quite a bit of work on.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm
I recoded his program to work with windows and noticed that they don't carry much beyond 75 degrees. Also actual armor test results have been obtained and found that they vary from 6% to 16% from these formula values. ..so...
All these formulas are pulled out of thin air. They just happen to fit for a satisfyingly wide field of observations.

As a matter of fact, even the math that people use to approximate the deceleration of a projectile when it passed down through the speed of sound is just that: a guess that fits.
 

mOBIUS

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All these formulas are pulled out of thin air. They just happen to fit for a satisfyingly wide field of observations.
Yes, The formulas were derived from observation. And they are used to predict that which has not been observed. So instead of testing every thickness and angle of armor they can use the formula to get a close approximation.

As a matter of fact, even the math that people use to approximate the deceleration of a projectile when it passed down through the speed of sound is just that: a guess that fits.
That would be the G-curve. An idealized factor.
What a lot of people miss is how the data that the formula is based on is found. A number of test shots of close velocities are done against the same plate sample. Depending on the nationality of the tester this is statistically weighed and averaged to find a single value. A collection of these values are used to try to generate a formula to predict shells and armor not tested. These countries generally kept test data secret. Their averaging and testing methods all differ in some degree.

A half century later computer geeks then stand reality on its head and use the formula as the real often ignoring the actual data collection when it is now available.
 

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A beta tester speculates on what Steve might have said if he were speculating about it:

Let me answer this for Steve:

In CMx1 a "dice roll" determined which area of the tank the shell hit (upper/lower hull, turret, etc.) while in CMx2 the actual ballistic shell path is calculated and the actual intersection with the target polygon model is determined.

Of course, this also involves random numbers (bad aim, dispersion), but on the side of the shooter this time, not the target! So the "dice" are "rolled" a few split-seconds earlier.

All this is speculation on my part, but I would be surprised if this is not what Steve meant to say!
 

Redwolf

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In CMx1 a "dice roll" determined which area of the tank the shell hit (upper/lower hull, turret, etc.) while in CMx2 the actual ballistic shell path is calculated and the actual intersection with the target polygon model is determined.
And how is it decided which ballistic path exactly the shell takes?

Right, with a dice roll.
 

Michael Dorosh

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A beta tester speculates on what Steve might have said if he were speculating about it:
Yes, that was Thomm.

Then Steve came along to drop this into the thread:

Thomm has it right While it is absolutely true that CMx1's armoring modeling is far, far more detailed and scientific than other games to this day (CM:SF excepted), it still basically boiled down to abstracted "dice rolls". The difference between CMx1 and other games is that the values going into the "dice rolls" were very carefully calculated based on scientific formulas, broad ranges of variables, and lots of situational input. The early Steel Panthers, for example, was more-or-less rock/paper/scissors. If you had a gun with a value of 9, and you hit a tank with an armor value of 5, you had x chance of damaging and y chance of killing.

A really good example of the difference is in the modeling of damage. Here's how the two games work:

CMx1
A hit is registered (probability based decision which part of vehicle struck) and it is determined if the round does any damage based on conditional circumstances (relative angles, armor type, armor thickness, etc.). If damage is achieved then it is determined based on the strength of that hit (amount of HE in the shell, kinetic energy, etc) and some other factors (e.g. a vehicle might be tagged as being prone to brewing up, while another one prone to catastrophic armor shattering). This assessment may be quite detailed, but in the end it basically amounted to dice rolls.

CMx2
The shell trajectory, including the angle of the shell at the time of impact, is tracked in detail. Where it hits in the 3D representation is where it hits in the underlying data for that vehicle. Shell looks like it hits the front left corner of the front of the mantlet? That's exactly where the hit is registered. The exact angles of the shell compared to the armor are taken into account, the properties of that specific portion of the vehicle (thickness, resistance level, type of armor, etc.) are used for detailed scientific calculations to determine what sort of damage, if any, is achieved. Damage is assessed based on what could possibly be damaged by that hit. A hit to the engine compartment isn't going to knock out the bow MG, for example. A hit to the right side that doesn't penetrate may in fact knock off the radio antenna, thus disabling the radio, but a hit to the front right track wouldn't, though it would disable and/or damage the right track. For modern warfare it means a hit that clears off a specific block of ERA (explosive armor) is now free to be hit again, but the subsequent shot must hit that same place. Likewise, a hit that strikes the armor next to ERA blocks isn't affected by them. That sort of thing.

To put it another way... CMx1 makes a pretty good, but abstracted, guess as to what should be damaged while CMx2 instead figures things out very precisely.

Now, what's the difference between the two, one might ask, in terms of gameplay? Well, if you don't care about realism then the answer is "not much". If you do care about realism then the difference is rather significant. Perhaps not quite as much of a difference between CMx1 and CMx2 as there is between CMx1 and Panzer General, but still there is a noticeable difference. It also is MUCH easier from our standpoint because we don't have to go around fudging code when game results appear unrealistic. We had to do that a lot on CMx1 (remember the raging debates about Tiger 1 mantlet thicknesses, anybody?), but haven't had to so any of that stuff for CMx2.

Steve
He changes "dice roll" to "probability based decision" now.

And makes the argument that CMX2 is more realistic, but why should the game player care about realism? I only care if the result is realistic - I don't necessarily care how they get there. It's all under the hood anyway, and it's not like I want to click the "bullet cam" option. He's still trying to sell this whole ballistics-simulator notion, but the grogs don't want to buy that - they want a game as much as the next guy.
 
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Geordie

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I noticed this too, what hes saying really is that CM-2 is much better at working out what hits where, where as CM-1 abstracted it a bit, although with a lot of algorithms that were revolutionary.

Now those are thrown out we get a much more realistic representation, but we dont know really how it works, well I dont anyway, so feel free to educate me.

For gameplay Id like to see some visual representation of this in action, CM-1 gave this and youd expect CM-2 to deliver this in more detail, not less.

Maybe its just me, but if I play a CM game I like to know whats going on, if my radio or engine has been disabled, Id like to know about it, not have to go into the vehicle to find out. And while Im on this subject, if Im playing RT live against another guy, how do I have the time to find out unless I get a bit of text on screen?
 

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It also is MUCH easier from our standpoint because we don't have to go around fudging code when game results appear unrealistic. We had to do that a lot on CMx1 (remember the raging debates about Tiger 1 mantlet thicknesses, anybody?), but haven't had to so any of that stuff for CMx2.
I'm no expert on this, and wouldn't pretend to be, but armour isn't just a question of thickness, as you might represent it in the thickness of a polygon or whatever, or it's slope. For example face hardening. Therefore there is still scope for debate on whether shell A would penetrate armour X. You still need to "fudge" it one way or another.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I'm no expert on this, and wouldn't pretend to be, but armour isn't just a question of thickness, as you might represent it in the thickness of a polygon or whatever, or it's slope. For example face hardening. Therefore there is still scope for debate on whether shell A would penetrate armour X. You still need to "fudge" it one way or another.
Besides which, how much of that armour data was classified for CMX2 and is fictional to begin with?
 

Sirocco

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Besides which, how much of that armour data was classified for CMX2 and is fictional to begin with?
Exactly. At the end of the day CMx2 replaces CMx1's "shortcomings" with a few of its own.

As far as tracking the trajectory is concerned, didn't CMx1 do that? I remember whacking some of my own FJ when a StuH hit the corner of a building that was just in the way of it and its target.
 

mOBIUS

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... the properties of that specific portion of the vehicle (thickness, resistance level, type of armor, etc.) are used for detailed scientific calculations to determine what sort of damage, if any, is achieved.
Is this is what makes it so much improved?

I guess you could arraign all the different tank components and bowl for them.
 

Redwolf

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Am I the only one who thinks it is obvious that you can make a more realistic game with the "pick some" model of CMx1 that the 3D model based CMx2?

If your 3D model misses a couple edges, and it must because of 3D card limitations, then you can't get it back. In the CMx1 model you just ad "what the hell, we just add another random 1.872% chance that the frontgizmohonk nudge is hit and that does xxx to the shot".
 

thewood

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Its just like the loading of infantry with equipment. Steve claims that there is a detailed loading model including weapon and equipemt weight, fitness, training, speed, distance, etc. Does anyone really care if they aren't told how to use it? How are we supposed to know how much they can carry and what effect it has.?
 
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