CM: Normandy & Family--More About What's In

KG_Jag

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In a post tonight Steve tells us a bit about what will be in the game(s):

Some quick comments, though you guys have to understand that I've got to keep some stuff vague for now since we never want to say something is "in" until we are sure there are no last minute hiccups. Things that I can say for sure are in:

1. Bridges. They go hand in hand with water, which is also in.

2. Air to ground, ground to air. This means we will have flak guns and what not. No 3D aircraft. It's too much work to make it look good (i.e. flight paths). So we're planning on the CMx1 shadow system.

3. By the time all the Modules for the first game are out, pretty much everything up until the change of seasons (i.e. Fall) should be present. That does me, however, that some things won't be available right out of the box. Subsequent Modules will focus on one major theme, but we are planning on being flexible as to what else we include. You will definitely not have all US units in the first game, just a BIG chunk of them.

4. CMx2 is 1:1 now and forever. The game system isn't even capable of doing abstract representations like CMx1 for the most part, especially not soldiers.

Steve

See post #42 here:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84850&page=5
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's always annoying to see a post by Steve lessened by some moron coming along and posting blather right after. Here's the post right after his. Note the bolded text (mine):

that's correct with me and I am sure to like the comings addons like I did since I discovered CM1 at its release.
To come back to the upcoming, just 2 questions about the Normandy Battlefield :
- Are you considering to introduce ramming for tanks (it happened frequently in Normandy)and is it feasible to calculate it and have a graphic representation for it
that's the way, near Vimont close to Caen, on the 13th july '44, the 1st Royal Tiger (in europe) was immobilized, then destroyed by a 75mmm Sherman from the 2nd Armd Irish Guards. The crew evacuated and in the urgency of their escape reported later having destroyed a Panther !
- How the increasing details, that should go along hamlets, suburbs, towns, and industrial areas as well as the environment of trees hedgerows, river and or stream, ponds, swampy area ........are being envisaged and aren't they be RAM killer affecting the graphic card, bringing the game to a slow motion and absence of some resolution starting with trenches appearing at the last moment. It happens nowadays in huge Marines Battles with a good graphic card and RAM.
Just to kidd you a bit more, what about cows. For sure they were mostly seen at the time, with their legs up. But afforded some protection in the field swept by MG !!!!!
Not to be harsh, but I don't know what else to call someone who hasn't learned how to capitalize at the start of sentences and who thinks dead bovines were commonly converted into bunkers, or feels that the more exclamation points you add will heighten the veracity of your claims.
 

CMant

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Not to be harsh, but I don't know what else to call someone who hasn't learned how to capitalize at the start of sentences and who thinks dead bovines were commonly converted into bunkers, or feels that the more exclamation points you add will heighten the veracity of your claims.
MD , the guy you quoted is French , and he did say he was kidding about the cows .
 

Michael Dorosh

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MD , the guy you quoted is French
I honestly can't tell if you're trying to defend him, or not. :D

Ok, yet another cheap shot.

I suspect English is not his first language, but are you telling me people in France don't capitalize their sentences or do rigorous historical research? Reading more in the thread, he's still trying to convince people that anecdotal evidence gathered on the Eastern Front should convince Steve to put in a lot of chrome about tank-ramming in Normandy. At least Sergei is fighting the good fight there.

Kidding or not, the cow comment is idiotic. If I was going onto a foreign language board to lobby for design features, I think the last thing that would occur to me would be to try and be funny...
 

Sirocco

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I wouldn't be all that surprised if cows were in. If you look at the trash in CMSF - genuine trash - which is required for 1:1, having dead cows, abandoned carts, etc., doesn't seem all that far fetched an idea.

Weren't they in GI Combat?
 

Redwolf

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I was hoping to see something that was not in CMx1.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I was hoping to see something that was not in CMx1.
Dead cows weren't in CMX1.

Sirocco - good points. Yes, dead cows were a feature of the Norman countryside commonly seen in period photos and would make an interesting "doodad".

Would like to see Citroens and haycarts and manure piles and haystacks too.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Oh, yeah, this bodes well.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1106107

Poster:Graphics aren't the enemy. Goofy game systems that take away fundamentals of tactical reality for gains in visuals are.

Steve: Which is why CMx2 is such a powerful simulation... the graphics have increased the fundamentals of tactical reality, not detracted from it. Unless you consider one negative tradeoff for a dozen improvements to be a bad deal. Which, based on your commentary over the past year, is exactly where you peg CM:SF. That's fine with us, but I'm still puzzled why you bother to play something you have such low regard for for so long.
Huh?

And when asked about national characteristics being modelled, Steve replied:
As stated in the thread linked to above, just look back at CMx1 for your answers. There was nothing inherently special about any force at all. Everything used the same stats, the same evaluation systems, the same interaction with terrain, etc. The difference came from the specific differences in the units themselves modified by the same pallet of options. If the user played with realistic options for specific units, then things came out generally realistic. Tactics came from these differences plus the way a particular force was organized/equipped.

In short, we never concerned ourselves with national differences when making CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, or CM:SF. The differences instead came out naturally from a well designed and implemented simulation. We will continue on with this approach forever more.
It worked in CMX2 because the squad battle drills were abstracted, and so were the weapons. It's no different than ASL. Now that the 1:1 rep is in there, you can't just put the Germans in American clothes - the tactical training was different. An American squad could literally advance shooting from the hip with their semi-autos and BARs - they called in "Marching Fire" and if its importance was exaggerated, so were the Human Waves that BFC included in CM:BB - and nonetheless were written in postwar accounts and are kind of a fun thing to include in a game that give something of a taste of historical flavour. The Germans used the LMG as the basis of squad firepower with the riflemen there to support it, the British did it the other way round with the LMG supporting the riflemen.

I get the feeling we're going to see a modeling of squad tactics that is as bereft of detail as CM:SF, based on Steve's comments - which would be fine, if he would just stop telling people that it is a "powerful simulation" based on "tactical reality" since what he's talking about represents neither. And they're just going to sell the game based on screenshots of the 3D models of the different variants of the MG42 and the Tiger tank in any event...with SS camouflage backdrops...
 

Palantir

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Oh cool, COWS!!! :cool:
Just think of the realistic fly’s at 1:1 scale, that will surely have me buying the game now. :lier:

Certainly any graphics like haystacks, carts etc. would be a plus but, it's more important that they put in the coast/beach & "West Wall" fortifications then a few dead cows.

Oh yea almost forgot, squad scale & WEGO. :(
 

jwb3

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It worked in CMX2 because the squad battle drills were abstracted, and so were the weapons. It's no different than ASL. Now that the 1:1 rep is in there, you can't just put the Germans in American clothes - {snip}

I get the feeling we're going to see a modeling of squad tactics that is as bereft of detail as CM:SF, based on Steve's comments - which would be fine, if he would just stop telling people that it is a "powerful simulation" based on "tactical reality" since what he's talking about represents neither.
Yeah, he seems completely incapable of understanding that the "tactical reality" he's so proud of is grounded in how the men interacted with the terrain and situation, and not with what they looked like while they were interacting with it.

And they're just going to sell the game based on screenshots of the 3D models of the different variants of the MG42 and the Tiger tank in any event...with SS camouflage backdrops...
Well, yeah -- but one could argue that this is exactly how they sold the first one!

(After all, the battle drills and other "tactical reality" that made CMX1 so great were all or mostly inserted by our imaginations, as a function of having pretty models to look at.)


John
 
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