Cloaking setup limits and night dm assembly/disassembly.

CTKnudsen

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Playing J169, in which an SSR states that 4 of the attacking Russian squads MUST enter as riders. As they are not infantry, they cannot be cloaked on entry. The Russian gets 10 non-rider squads, and the four riders. E1.41 states that only infantry may start as cloaking counters. E1.411 states that 1 cloaking counter is received per squad-equivalent in the attacker OB.

Does the Russian get 14 cloaking counters or 10? There are 14 squads in the OB, but only 10 of them are Infantry, per se. But E1.411 does not specify "Infantry" squad-equivalents, so...

Another night question. Cloaked counters must dm SW if possible. Does assembling a SW cause loss of cloaking? In NVR? Out of NVR? I would argue that it does not out of NVR, as no gunflash is placed (E1.89), and it is out of LOS, but loss in NVR is a bit trickier depending on how one parses E1.3.

Basically, are E1.31 and E1.8-.89 exclusionary? Are these the ONLY ways in which one may lose concealment at night, or are they modifications to the daytime rules, and therefore conducting "any other action" in LOS per the concealment loss/gain table note C loses cloaking/concealment?

Interested to hear what people think.
 

CTKnudsen

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Hmm, found a Q&A from '96 that indicates plainly that assembling does cause loss of cloaking, and, one assumes, concealment:

E1.31 & E1.42 Does assembling a SW cause loss of Cloaking? A. Yes. [Compil2]

But there is no indication as to whether this applies in or out of NVR, or both. E1.43 states that activities that cause concealment loss at night also cause cloaking loss. But while assembling an SW is firing it, the concealment chart states that if no good order unit is in LOS (ie the firing unit is out of NVR), concealment is not lost.

I would argue that since firing a weapon where noone can see it does not cause loss of concealment, neither should it cause loss of cloaking, but I've been wrong before.
 

Brian W

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I would argue that since firing a weapon where noone can see it does not cause loss of concealment, neither should it cause loss of cloaking, but I've been wrong before.
There are things done that lose cloaking but not concealment. Assembling a SW while out of LOS of GO Enemy Ground units is one of those things.
 

Brian W

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Does the Russian get 14 cloaking counters or 10? There are 14 squads in the OB, but only 10 of them are Infantry, per se. But E1.411 does not specify "Infantry" squad-equivalents, so...
If Infantry is not specified, than I'd say 14 cloaking counters.
 

CTKnudsen

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There are things done that lose cloaking but not concealment. Assembling a SW while out of LOS of GO Enemy Ground units is one of those things.
Ok, but vague Q&A aside, where does it indicate that? I wouldn't lose concealment in a daytime scenario if I assembled a SW out of LOS, why would I lose cloaking out of NVR (and therefore LOS) in a night scenario?
 

jrv

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Ok, but vague Q&A aside, where does it indicate that? I wouldn't lose concealment in a daytime scenario if I assembled a SW out of LOS, why would I lose cloaking out of NVR (and therefore LOS) in a night scenario?
Because a SW must be disassembled if possible per E1.42. I don't think the reasoning is that assembling a SW causes loss of cloak. Rather a unit must drop its cloak in order to assemble a SW, i.e. while the SW is cloaked a unit may not assemble it. That re-phrasing has no practical difference I think, but I like it better.

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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Ok, but I am still a little fuzzy on why this is so. There is nothing in Ch E that I can see that says anything other than a cloaked unit loses cloaking when it loses concealment. E1.3 so far as I can tell says that with the exceptions of E1.31-.33, concealment gain/loss is exactly as for daylight. E1.4-.43 say that cloaking is lost if overstacked, part of a HW (or banzai, one would assume), or if it does something to lose concealment.

Since assembling a SW would only lose concealment in daytime if in sight of a unbroken, GO enemy unit, then I think it fair to say that the same applies at night; a unit out of LOS can assemble a SW and retain concealment. Then why would that same unit lose cloaking status? In NVR and in sight of an enemy unit? Absolutely, cloaking and concealment are lost. But out of NVR? That doesn't make sense to me.
 

jrv

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Ok, but I am still a little fuzzy on why this is so. There is nothing in Ch E that I can see that says anything other than a cloaked unit loses cloaking when it loses concealment. E1.3 so far as I can tell says that with the exceptions of E1.31-.33, concealment gain/loss is exactly as for daylight. E1.4-.43 say that cloaking is lost if overstacked, part of a HW (or banzai, one would assume), or if it does something to lose concealment.

Since assembling a SW would only lose concealment in daytime if in sight of a unbroken, GO enemy unit, then I think it fair to say that the same applies at night; a unit out of LOS can assemble a SW and retain concealment. Then why would that same unit lose cloaking status? In NVR and in sight of an enemy unit? Absolutely, cloaking and concealment are lost. But out of NVR? That doesn't make sense to me.
Again, as far as I am concerned, the problem is not that assembling a SW causes loss of concealment (or not), it's that a SW can't be assembled while cloaked. A SW must *be* dm while cloaked, not it must "start" dm. Would assembling a SW while cloaked violate this rule? Yes. So it is not possible to assemble a SW while cloaked, concealment loss or not.

JR
 

Brian W

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Well, is it possible that cloaked units are never allowed to assemble SW until they lose cloaking and concealment?

Or, maybe a cloaked unit may portage concealed, but not cloaked, non-dm SW?
 

CTKnudsen

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Again, as far as I am concerned, the problem is not that assembling a SW causes loss of concealment (or not), it's that a SW can't be assembled while cloaked. A SW must *be* dm while cloaked, not it must "start" dm. Would assembling a SW while cloaked violate this rule? Yes. So it is not possible to assemble a SW while cloaked, concealment loss or not. JR
And there it is. Ok, so just to test my understanding of how concealment loss works at night, can a cloaked leader deploy/recombine/rally outside LOS/NVR without losing cloaking status? I say yes, but I've been wrong before. Just up the page, in fact!
 

jrv

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And there it is. Ok, so just to test my understanding of how concealment loss works at night, can a cloaked leader deploy/recombine/rally outside LOS/NVR without losing cloaking status? I say yes, but I've been wrong before. Just up the page, in fact!
I believe cloaked leaders may perform all actions allowed a concealed leader except as otherwise specified, and I don't see that those actions are otherwise specified. Note that this is somewhat like the situation with HIP units, and a recent Q&A disallowed all sorts of behavior for HIP units that weren't concealment loss actions (e.g. deploying when out of LOS), so you may get a different response if you submit a q&a. But as the rules are written now I think these are allowed.

JR
 

jrv

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Well, is it possible that cloaked units are never allowed to assemble SW until they lose cloaking and concealment?

Or, maybe a cloaked unit may portage concealed, but not cloaked, non-dm SW?
A unit may drop cloaking for concealment (as a generalized reading of E1.422). Once it does that it may assemble to its heart's content.

I think the SW has to be in the same concealment status as its possessor, i.e. both cloaked or both concealed normally.

JR
 

Brian W

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I'm just trying to break the rules.

However, is the last line of E1.422 correct? It seems to contradict A12.14, which it references (i.e. an overstacked unit loses concealment when in LOS of a GO (not just unbroken) enemy unit).
 

CTKnudsen

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I'm just trying to break the rules.

However, is the last line of E1.422 correct? It seems to contradict A12.14, which it references (i.e. an overstacked unit loses concealment when in LOS of a GO (not just unbroken) enemy unit).
As written, overstacking at night causes concealment/cloaking loss if in the LOS of any unbroken enemy unit, whether GO or not. Whether this is intentional or an oversight, I cannot say.
 

CTKnudsen

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Perry sez... (drumroll, please)

Q:
> E1.41, E1.411
>
> E.1.41 states that "The Scenario Attacker's Infantry (only) always starts the scenario in the form of Cloaking counters [EXC: Aerial landings]."
>
> E1.411 states that "The Scenario Attacker sets up offboard (including the possible use of Dummy Cloaking counters). He is allotted one Cloaking counter for each squad-equivalent in his OB, either at start or (separately) as reinforcements."
>
> In a scenario which has an SSR that mandates that certain units start the scenario as Passengers/Riders/Cavalry, does the scenario attacker:
>
> A) receive one cloaking counter per squad-equivalent, or
> B) receive one cloaking counter per squad-equivalent that starts the scenario as Infantry?
>
> In a scenario not bound by such an SSR, does the scenario attacker, but which contains potential Passengers/Riders/Cavalry:
>
> A) receive one cloaking counter per squad-equivalent, or
> B) receive one cloaking counter per squad-equivalent that starts the scenario as Infantry?

A:
Squad-equivalents.

....Perry
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Hi,

This is all a bit of a drama when applied to RB.

There are two areas that are of concern:

Movement issues

The first is that clocked units carry sw in excess of 3 pp is if it was 3pp. From the above discussion if a SW
can be dismantled ( eg Ger HMG) then it must be. For any SW ( read Russian HMG) that cannot be dismantled
then it gets to carry it as 3pp assembled. Potentially nice for the Russian....

REAL or NOT

I didn't think CL counters could do anything. I was under the impression that they were in essence not there
until "seen" as under the requirements of RB. They are not target for SAN for example.

Which introduces another question " Do they (as normal ? counters) disallow gaining? of enemy units :

Which in this case indicates (if so) that they are "there".

Oh gosh..
 

CTKnudsen

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The first is that clocked units carry sw in excess of 3 pp is if it was 3pp. From the above discussion if a SW
can be dismantled ( eg Ger HMG) then it must be. For any SW ( read Russian HMG) that cannot be dismantled
then it gets to carry it as 3pp assembled. Potentially nice for the Russian....
Yes, but this would only come into play during a Russian night attack, which I think is fairly rare. And yes, it would allow reinforcing Russians to get MMG/HMG into action much more quickly. Consider the "2 minutes per turn" thing extremely abstracted at night.

I didn't think CL counters could do anything. I was under the impression that they were in essence not there
until "seen" as under the requirements of RB. They are not target for SAN for example.
You seem to be confusing night cloaking counters and reserve cloaking counters. Reserve cloaking counters basically sit there until someone either affects them or gets to within 3 hexes in LOS. Regular cloaking counters get to move around and do stuff.

Which introduces another question " Do they (as normal ? counters) disallow gaining? of enemy units
Both types of cloaking counters prevent concealment gain.
 
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Yes, but this would only come into play during a Russian night attack, which I think is fairly rare. And yes, it would allow reinforcing Russians to get MMG/HMG into action much more quickly. Consider the "2 minutes per turn" thing extremely abstracted at night.



You seem to be confusing night cloaking counters and reserve cloaking counters. Reserve cloaking counters basically sit there until someone either affects them or gets to within 3 hexes in LOS. Regular cloaking counters get to move around and do stuff.



Both types of cloaking counters prevent concealment gain.
Yes you are right. Thanks for clearing up that gremlin. A rose by any other name..,,.
 
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