Cliff and Inherent Terrain

PaKman

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
71
Reaction score
28
Location
Oslo, Norway
Country
llFrance
Hi all,

Orchards are in Season. Is there a LOS between F6 and G8 (see attached)?

cliff_orchard.jpg

Thanks!
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,317
Reaction score
4,648
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I don't believe we know the answer to this question. I have asked the same question of MMP in other contexts, but have not gotten a reply. I think the way the rules are written the orchard is at the lower level along the hexside and the LOS is blocked. Otherwise you get anomalies: if F6 is at level zero then--assuming the orchard is at the upper level on the hexside--the LOS would not be hindered but LOS at level one would be, i.e. you would have a LOS under the orchard.

JR
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,291
Reaction score
1,862
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Cliff hanging apple trees.
Another ASL (bio)physics phenomenon. :D
 

PaKman

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
71
Reaction score
28
Location
Oslo, Norway
Country
llFrance
Thanks jrv, that's how we played it as well. I agree that this makes more "sense".
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
446
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
I agree that this question could use an official answer as the RB "as is" is most literally interpretated as JR says - despite the somewhat odd result.

To me, the heart of the problem is B11.2, which rather vaguely states the effect of a cliff symbol:

11.2 The serrated edge of a cliff is no more of an obstacle to LOS traced along that hexside than the elevation level it separates from the higher hill hex. For LOS purposes, the black art depiction of a Depression cliff is treated as part of the Depression artwork.​

More natural - and a good house rule, I think - would be to treat the inherent terrain of the lower level as extending into and including the serrated edge (so in the posted example, the orchard would exist only at level 1, and that crag would exist within the serrated cliff symbol at the ground level of hexes F6 and F7).

More radical would be to treat the serrated edge as part of the higher level, but the RB is explicitly against this option.
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Elder Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
1,228
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Since the Orchard is Inherent Terrain and the rule does not state that the terrain of the lower level of the Cliff is an extension of the Lower Level hex terrain, the Inherent Terrain would still exist at the lower level, thus blocking the LOS. IMHO.
 

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,291
Reaction score
1,862
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
In summary : Orchard extends along the cliff (0 base level) to the hexside ; Crag extends along the cliff (0 base level) to the hexside.
The hex is a mix of 1/2 level Crag and 1 level Orchard...
Do I get it right?
Now, there is the situation when the Orchard is out of season...
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
446
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
In summary : Orchard extends along the cliff (0 base level) to the hexside ; Crag extends along the cliff (0 base level) to the hexside.
The hex is a mix of 1/2 level Crag and 1 level Orchard...
Do I get it right?
Now, there is the situation when the Orchard is out of season...
By the book, I think F6 and F7 are orchard hexes and G7 is crag. The hexside is a orchard/crag mix, though we are left with the odd cardboard reality where the orchard found its way to the lower-cliff portion of F6/F7 (within the serrated symbol).

Perhaps this is a plausible reality (I don't know how orchards grow!). However, it strikes me as weird. It also seems likely that the crag (which is often found on the lower side of ASL cliffs) would also be found at cliff-base in F6/F7. Thus my proposed house rule was to crop in-hex inherent terrain (the orchards of F6/F7 in this case) at the cliff edge AND to extend any lower-level inherent terrain (the crag in our example) throughout the dark cliff symbol (into F6/F7 in this case).

I didn't mean to confuse as to what the RB actually says. Though, I think the writers forgot to consider such situations!


Addendum:
In light of a newly posted thread (LOS and Cliff Hexsides), I realize that my proposed house rule has only minor applicabily: to LOS traced exactly along the hexside. I had originally believed that any LOS traced through only the heavy-serrated symbol would be treated as across the lower level (even if not traced exactly along the hexside). This makes the OP situation much more specific and the accepted reading of the rule much easier to swallow. My apologies for complicating things!!!

Nice of these two threads to appear at once!
 
Last edited:

Swiftandsure

Robin Reeve
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
16,291
Reaction score
1,862
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Perhaps this is a plausible reality (I don't know how orchards grow!). However, it strikes me as weird.
That is why I wrote of "ASL (bio)physics" hereabove.
ASL physics do create some "suspension of reality" (tee hee).
I have accepted them as linked to the mechanics and simplifications of the game.
I have long ago abandoned any idea of house ruling to try to "fix" ASL with my idea of reality... after all, we are speaking of terrain which has the form of a giant hexagon, and with trees or boulders which strangely occupy exactly that geometric form.
Terrain height is also extremely uniform, and blind hex rules are wrong (if an upper point is one level higher than the obstacle and tries to see a lower point one level lower, there should be as many blind hexes after the obstact than there are hexes between the upper unit and the obstacle),
Etc., etc.
Rather than introduce house rules which will, in their turn and special situations, seem as weird as the original ones, I prefer to follow the latter - and admit that ASL is a giant WW2 Wonderland.
(The only rule that I would really like to see changed is the Foxhole one - but on a basis of "equal treatment" between the MPh, APh and RtPh mechanics and on the fact that I don't use FH to place units in, but as means to create routing paths across open ground : a usage that I live with).
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
446
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
Rather than introduce house rules which will, in their turn and special situations, seem as weird as the original ones, I prefer to follow the latter - and admit that ASL is a giant WW2 Wonderland.
:D
Agreed in spirit! Sometimes I can't resist (a serious fault of mine, I admit!), especially when the RB simply seems to to have missed something that needed clarifying. Anyway, you'll be happy to know that my "house rules" virtually never find their way into my games. I propose them mostly in the hope that some soon-to-exist-3rd-Edition-ASLRB editor might be inspired to agree with me!
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,317
Reaction score
4,648
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Where I find this very annoying is for caves. A cave across the F6/G7 hexside will be affected by SMOKE both in F6 and G7. The SMOKE in F6 places a razor-thin layer of SMOKE over the hexside, assuming the SMOKE rises from the lower level. That means that if there are defensive positions in the upper part of F6, you can hinder both by placing the SMOKE in F6. Putting on my reality visor, I would want SMOKE in F6 to hinder the upper units and only SMOKE in G7 to hinder the cave (or SMOKE in the cave, but that's a different level of reality). But having SMOKE (or any inherent terrain) treated that way causes a lot more rules questions, so I think as a practical matter it has to be played that the hexside inherent terrain is at the lower level across a cliff.

JR
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
3,907
Reaction score
188
Location
Cadiz
First name
Miguel
Country
llSpain
Hi all,

Orchards are in Season. Is there a LOS between F6 and G8 (see attached)?

View attachment 1142

Thanks!
I will play as no hindrance below the base level.. Ie not blocked.. A Cliff black area is not a normal hill depiction and IMO it doesn't has any level.. The hill colour is on the other hex and I think only colored hill areas define a level.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,317
Reaction score
4,648
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I will play as no hindrance below the base level.. Ie not blocked.. A Cliff black area is not a normal hill depiction and IMO it doesn't has any level.. The hill colour is on the other hex and I think only colored hill areas define a level.
Do you play as hindrance if the LOS is from level one to level one?

JR
 

Philippe R

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
40
Reaction score
2
Location
FRANCE
Country
llFrance
Where I find this very annoying is for caves. A cave across the F6/G7 hexside will be affected by SMOKE both in F6 and G7. The SMOKE in F6 places a razor-thin layer of SMOKE over the hexside, assuming the SMOKE rises from the lower level....
JR
G11.85 specifically states that "Smoke si above all Cave counters in that hex" and "..does not affect LOS to/from those caves". So I don't catch your point..
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
20,317
Reaction score
4,648
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
G11.85 specifically states that "Smoke si above all Cave counters in that hex" and "..does not affect LOS to/from those caves".
I missed that. It is a bit surprising as the SMOKE exists across the lower part of a crest line, but apparently even though LOS through that lower part of the hex traced from a cave in another hex would be hindered, LOS from a cave in the hex would not. Rules trump geometry, I guess.

JR
 
Top