Clearing known mines (B24:74)

[SFiedler]

Hi

Some Q on B24:74 clearance of known minefields.

B24:74 says (my emphasis on relevant part)

B24.74 Minefield: Unpinned, Good Order Infantry in a minefield Location (but not on top of a Wire counter) which has not fired (or directed fire) during that Player Turn and becomes TI during its MPh in an attempt to clear mines may clear a lane through a minefield with a successful Clearance DR at the end of its Player Turn's CCPh. However, any Original Minefield DR of 12 (11 or 12 if Inexperienced) results in Casualty Reduction vs the clearing unit(s). If successful, the minefield hex is marked with a TB counter across any two hexsides of the ATTACKER's choice (28.61). If every hexside of the minefield hex is crossed by a TB, the mines and TB are removed. Good Order Infantry may enter a Known minefield hex free of minefield attack by placing a partial TB, provided they expend their entire MF allotment to do so, become TI, and attempt to clear the minefield at the end of their CCPh. Unless the minefield is cleared, these units may exit the minefield free of minefield attack only by the hexside through which they entered. No other units may use the partial TB. The partial TB counter is removed if they are eliminated or exit the hex. See also 28.62-.8.
Illustration:

Question 1 M10 and M11 are rowhouse. Can M10 enter M11 as per B24:74?

Question 2 I10 is rubbled- Is there still a row house bar in between I10 and J10?

Question 3 Can the MMC in I10 try to enter J10 as per B24:74

Thanks!

/S

 

[jrv]

q2: there is a rowhouse bar until both hexes are rubbled [B23.71].

JR

 

[jrv]

My first thought regarding the other part of the question is that you can't enter/create a trailbreak via bypass. The rowhouse wall bypass is different than regular bypass, so that could easily be wrong, but that would be my say. You'd have to breach the rowhouse wall somehow to start clearing the mines. That's obviously just a guess.

JR

 

[Binchois]

This is a weird one.

First of all, mines are never considered to be inside a building, as is clear from many rules: B28.44, in particular.

Minefields are allowed in non-Interior Building Hexes but do not attack units entering/exiting those hexes through a building hexside unless using Bypass Movement.​

Secondly, remember that B24.74 describes two methods of clearing minefields: the second method (highlighted in OP) available to units who who want to move safely into one (and then clear it), and the first for units which find themselves already in the middle of one.

If building K11 was a non-rowhouse building (and un-rubbled), a unit could safely move from I10 into J10, then clear the minefield from inside. In which case, what hexsides could the ATTACKER choose?

I certainly see no reason why a unit can't move from I10 into J10 as nothing in the rules prohibits entering a minefield using rowhouse bypass. Once inside the building, the weirdness is that you could then clear the minefield at all!

I would suggest that the rules do not change in this case, but that the I10 unit could still choose to place a TB from I10 to J10 (of course, only useful for "bypassing" the mines outside. That said, a house rule could be added to make the TB applicable for only one side if the rowhouse (otherwise you have another case like smoke magically engulfing both sides of a building when fired at one side).

P.S. I realize that the RB seems not to have imagined this situation, but I think my interpretation follows what it does say fairly correctly...thoughts?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Since the hexsides & hexspines are part of a hex (See definition of Hex in the Index) it should be possible to enter J10 in such a fashion and place the 1/2TB towards I10 (thus also allowing the unit to move out of the minefield back into I10 without attack). Note, you have not entered I11 in any fashion so I wouldn't believe the TB would be placed towards that hex, but that's a guess only. In all other respects I agree with Binchois.

 

[SFiedler]

My personal suggestion for a solution would be too keep rules as is but no placement of trailbreak. I.e Entry w/o attack, Get TI, use all MF, chance to clear at end of CCPh. No semi-temporary TB.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Question 2 I10 is rubbled- Is there still a row house bar in between I10 and J10?

Yes there is, but for movement purposes the special "bypass" at the vertex doesn't apply, since you wouldn't be moving from a rowhouse hex into another rowhouse hex.

 

[jrv]

Yes there is, but for movement purposes the special "bypass" at the vertex doesn't apply, since you wouldn't be moving from a rowhouse hex into another rowhouse hex.

What if the building is rubbled at an upper level?

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

What if the building is rubbled at an upper level?

That has never happend in the history of ASL so I don't know.

But if it did happen, I think it is still a rowhouse hex.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yes there is, but for movement purposes the special "bypass" at the vertex doesn't apply, since you wouldn't be moving from a rowhouse hex into another rowhouse hex.

Has this been verified by a Q&A? It just doesn't seem logical in application (not that ASL follows logical assumptions ). I would doubt that this was the intent as we are attempting to simulate an event in game terms (though I'm not quite on a role with rule interpretations here lately - see Perry Says re: Smoke & additional levels & LOS/LOF).

 

[volgaG68]

Good pic for me to ask a related question about. Say a Gun is in the H10 debris hex, CA H11-I11. An enemy MMC uses rowhouse-bypass to go from L11 to K11, via the K12 vertex. Can the Gun fire at the MMC on the L11-K11-K12 vertex without changing CA?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Per B23.71 the unit fired upon at the vertex is returned to the hex it was moving from so I would venture a guess it is not quite yet within the gun's CA at the vertex. However, having said that I could see that because of the definition of "hex" in the Index, that such a shot would be allowed. I checked "all the usual suspects" in Q&As & didn't find one that would clearly address this situation. Perhaps a candidate for a Q to Perry?

 

[fanatic+1]

Pursuant to C.5 either the hex being left or the hex being entered must be within the Gun's CA for a shot to be taken.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Good pic for me to ask a related question about. Say a Gun is in the H10 debris hex, CA H11-I11. An enemy MMC uses rowhouse-bypass to go from L11 to K11, via the K12 vertex. Can the Gun fire at the MMC on the L11-K11-K12 vertex without changing CA?

No, L11/K11 is not within the Gun's CA.

 

[volgaG68]

Thanks, everyone. Fanatic+1 nailed it, C.5B answered it clearly. Those are easily my most overlooked rules for some odd reason, the ones on the first page of each Chapter.