Churchill mk iv in soviet service?

Juan SantaX

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Where can I find photograps of Churchills mk. Iv in soviet service at kurks battle?

I have been looking on the web, but found very very few...

Thanks in advance
 

Paul M. Weir

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Likely there are few. At Prokhorovka there were only roughly 30-35 Churchills. From memory of photos the Mk III was more common than the Mk IV in Soviet service. The only real difference was the welded turret on the Mk III vs the cast turret on the Mk IV, no difference in ASL. In British service the slightly later Mk IV was more common, many converted later to Mk VI by replacing the 6lbr gun with the 75mm QF.

However note that Soviet documents refer to all Churchills as Mk IV as the Churchill was the 4th British infantry tank design. The Soviets themselves at that time made little note of differences in T-34 models. The various 76mm T-34 might get referred to as "slab-sided" or "hex-nut" in accounts, the m1940, m1941, etc designations are more post war appellations.
 

Juan SantaX

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Likely there are few. At Prokhorovka there were only roughly 30-35 Churchills. From memory of photos the Mk III was more common than the Mk IV in Soviet service. The only real difference was the welded turret on the Mk III vs the cast turret on the Mk IV, no difference in ASL. In British service the slightly later Mk IV was more common, many converted later to Mk VI by replacing the 6lbr gun with the 75mm QF.

However note that Soviet documents refer to all Churchills as Mk IV as the Churchill was the 4th British infantry tank design. The Soviets themselves at that time made little note of differences in T-34 models. The various 76mm T-34 might get referred to as "slab-sided" or "hex-nut" in accounts, the m1940, m1941, etc designations are more post war appellations.
I’m looking for the cast turret one and only found 3 or so different knocked out Churchills but anyway I’m look for not winter camouflaged ones. But always the same photographs...:cautious:
 

xenovin

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I think there is a picture or two in zamulin’s destroying the myth book
 

Juan SantaX

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Thx

How good is that book?

I see Glantz thinks it’s a great book...
 
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Paul M. Weir

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It's Demolishing The Myth. Pop history it ain't. The English translation is quite readable in the sense of flow, but it is a long book with tons of detail. The only fault I felt it had was insufficient maps, which made it a bit of an effort to follow the overall flow. I would regard it as The book with regards to detail on the Soviet side. As best I can figure out it is not shy about criticising Soviet mistakes and gives honest casualties, IE completely reverses/revises the old Soviet propaganda in that regard.
 

Yuri0352

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Demolishing the Myth is excellent. A very comprehensive and readable account of the fighting around Prokhorovka, especially from the Soviet perspective. The book includes several color photos of portions of the battlefield as it appears today. I was especially intrigued by the accounts of the Soviets 9th Airborne division, and the description of the numerous mistaken attacks by Soviet ground attack aircraft.

My only complaint would be regarding the maps, which although plentiful, leave a bit to be desired in terms of quality and detail.
 

xenovin

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His maps are 10x better than those in Glantz’s books. I think the issue is that they are translated from period soviet maps who tended to focus on operational over tactical maps so not much to choose from. I like all his books - wealth of detail.
 

holdit

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Demolishing the Myth is excellent.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the myth that's being demolished? I looked up the book on Amazon but the blurb doesn't say. Some of the reviews have references to meddling by Stalin, and the Germans penetrating further than was thought, but that seems to be it.
 

xenovin

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That the Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army destroyed 2nd SS Pz Corps at Prokhorovka. Book shows how both sides took a beating. Soviet historiography only speaks of the great victory but this book explores the Russian cost.
 

Paul M. Weir

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The most likely originator of the myth in the West was Paul Carell who wrote a 2 part "history" of the Eastern Front in the '60s. Despite being a completely German perspective story, that was what got me interested in the EF. The problem was that he did not research the German (microfiched) war records, which if memory serves me, were in the US at the time. He used a variety of published sources including Soviet General's memoirs and official Soviet histories, which were slanted to say the least. What makes that so ironic is that Paul Carell was really Obersturmbannführer Paul Karl Schmidt who worked high up in the Nazi Foreign Ministery's propaganda section. A Nazi propagandist using Soviet propaganda to write history!

 
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