Choosing to shoot defensive fire during movement phase

shirlfactor

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I always wondered what the rule is for defensive fire in the movement phase . So let's say I'm moving a mmc . I call out 1 , then ,2 and so on . When I get to his 4 mf my opponent says no shots. So I decide to not move him anymore. Then my opponent says ok I'll shoot at him now. Is that legal ?Since the unit is not moving anymore ?Does the defender have to wait till their defensive fire phase now since the mmc's movement had been finished? Most people including myself have played that you can shoot and the mmc suffers all the movement penalties, but I couldn't find the rule. Thanks for the help.
 

Vinnie

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You have to announce a unit has finished moving and the defender can then shootat the unit on its last MF.
So I go 1, no shot, 2, no shot, 3, no shot, end there, ok I'll shoot on 3 then.
 

Philippe D.

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So in the example above, the 3rd MF spent actually provides two different fire opportunities (one when the MF is spent, and one more when the decision is taken not to move further)? I assume the same firer cannot fire on both occasions, at least.

I think I've only played it that each MF/MP expenditure allows for its own fire opportunities, but not spending more MF (MP are different, since you cannot decide not to spend them) and ending the unit's MPh dows not - if you decline to fire on the MF expenditure and the unit happens to not spend any more MF, tough luck. Otherwise, would a shot at a unit that could still move (has MF remaining, or could possibly declare late CX and move away) retroactively let it spend more MF?
 

jrv

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This is made clear in a Q&A:

Q&A said:
A8.11 If the Defender declines to use a Defensive First Fire at a unit after it moves into a certain hex and the Attacker subsequently announces that he has finished moving that unit, can the defender then change his mind and use efensive First Fire (before another unit has physically moved)?
A. Yes. [Gen23.2; An89; An96; Mw]
JR
 

jrv

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I assume the same firer cannot fire on both occasions, at least.
I would say it allows the normal DFF opportunities, i.e. no more shots than MF expended. If the unit expended two MF to enter a Location and the DEFENDER fired on the first but did not on the second, the declaration of the end of that unit's movement would allow the second shot.

JR
 

Vinnie

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It does not show an extra shot but dues allow an extra chance to change your mind about shooting.
It is drawn that way so it fits but become a race to see who can move the counters faster.
 

Philippe D.

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OK, that Q&A didn't show up in the version I checked :)

Now, I'd have a followup question then: if the "no more movement" announcement is followed by a "OK then I'll shoot", can the ATTACKER then change his mind about not moving further? In effect, this would be a "no more movement unless you shoot". This might be important: if the decision to not move any further is final, then this gives the DEFENDER one last opportunity for firing at the FFNAM/FFMO target, but he might fire by revealing an adjacent HIP unit, and still keep the possibility of a Final Fire opportunity.
 

Mister T

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Now, I'd have a followup question then: if the "no more movement" announcement is followed by a "OK then I'll shoot", can the ATTACKER then change his mind about not moving further?
No, "no more movement" means ...no more movement.
 

bendizoid

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I think you can shoot at them until the next unit spends a MP/MF. This way if you try to do a surprise, last unit to move and end the phase shenanigans, you can still get shot at.
 

Carln0130

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This is made clear in a Q&A:
A8.11 If the Defender declines to use a Defensive First Fire at a unit after it moves into a certain hex and the Attacker subsequently announces that he has finished moving that unit, can the defender then change his mind and use efensive First Fire (before another unit has physically moved)?
A. Yes. [Gen23.2; An89; An96; Mw]


JR
Bingo. This is actually one of the funnier rules in the game to observe. I can certainly picture a HS with a schreck sending out one of its men to pound on the hull of a Sherman to ask if they are moving further. I get the game mechanic though and it is to give a little something-something to the defensive player, since the system is inherently pro-attacker.
 

jrv

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Bingo. This is actually one of the funnier rules in the game to observe. I can certainly picture a HS with a schreck sending out one of its men to pound on the hull of a Sherman to ask if they are moving further. I get the game mechanic though and it is to give a little something-something to the defensive player, since the system is inherently pro-attacker.
With vehicles it is a bit different as they have to account for their MPs, by actual expenditure, in delay or by saying they wish to enter a hex they don't have sufficient MP to enter [D2.1]. If your 'schreck hs sees a Sherman spend one MP, stop, he can ask if the crew is done and plans to let all the rest of its MP be assumed to be spent in Delay. If so he can fire on the last Delay MP. If the Sherman is not stopped and has MP left, the 'schreck hs can ask whether the Sherman intends to enter a Location it does not have sufficient MP for (in which case it plans to remain in Motion with MP remaining [D2.4]). Otherwise the Sherman must keep moving.

JR
 

Brian W

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No, "no more movement" means ...no more movement.
Is it? If it were truly "end of movement" the DEFENDER wouldn't get to fire again. It is when the ATTACKER says "end of movement" and the DEFENDER declines to fire that the ATTACKER has to end that unit's movement. Nothing is free in ASL, so if the DEFENDER chooses to intervene with fire, the fire voids the "end of movement" announcement. JMO, and hopefully there's some Q&A on that which clears it up.
 

Brian W

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If your 'schreck hs sees a Sherman spend one MP, stop, he can ask if the crew is done and plans to let all the rest of its MP be assumed to be spent in Delay. If so he can fire on the last Delay MP.
With ROF weapons it's more complicated than that. Delay points are spent singularly. Convention has it that people say, delay for the rest, but if a DEFENDER's 88L comes out of HIP to fire on the next to last delay MP, and the Sherman survives, it can then start back up again on the last MP. It isn't locked into delaying for the last MP because delay MPs are spent one at a time (except in multi-location stack movement, maybe).
 

Robin Reeve

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Simple question from the Defender to the moving Attacker : "Is that your last MF expenditure ?"
Perhaps necessary to avoid the Attacker say: "end move", then - if the Defender doesn't fire - add: " Nah, it was an outright lie. I am moving further."
But, in my case, I don't think that I would play with a liar more than once, anyway.
 

Brian W

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Simple question from the Defender to the moving Attacker : "Is that your last MF expenditure ?"
Perhaps necessary to avoid the Attacker say: "end move", then - if the Defender doesn't fire - add: " Nah, it was an outright lie. I am moving further."
The act of firing keeps the unit's MPh alive. If the defender says, no fire, then the unit is done, not take backsies. The defender still has the upper hand, it just isn't a blank check anymore. The ASOP however, doesn't support this position.
 

zgrose

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I'm pretty sure the need or requirement to declare that you are done moving a unit is irrelevant. The Attacker is moving the unit, or they are moving another unit. Before they get to move the next unit (or end MPh), the Defender can fire at the previously moving unit. The Attacker ends the movement of the unit by beginning to move another unit, not by saying "this unit is done moving."
 

klasmalmstrom

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I'm pretty sure the need or requirement to declare that you are done moving a unit is irrelevant. The Attacker is moving the unit, or they are moving another unit. Before they get to move the next unit (or end MPh), the Defender can fire at the previously moving unit. The Attacker ends the movement of the unit by beginning to move another unit, not by saying "this unit is done moving."
You do have to say that the particular unit is finished moving.

A8.11:
"...However, the ATTACKER must give the DEFENDER ample opportunity (as previously defined between the players) to declare his fire before moving on and, before moving another unit, must declare the end of the first unit’s movement at which time it may be fired on as moving...."
 

Mister T

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Thanks to Klas for pointing out the relevant rule section.

The principle is also stated in A4.2:

'Whenever a player moves a unit during his MPh he states aloud the MF expended by that unit in entering each hex or in performing any other activity within its current hex. If a unit is going to end its MPh there it must state so before moving anothing unit.'

So no funny stuff :readit:
 
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