Changing Gun CA (non-AFV) in fire phase

Philippe D.

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This came up on the French ASL forum, and we didn't manage to reach a clear understanding of the rules, so I thought I'd call on the larger ASL community's wisdom. I made a search of the Q&A for C3.22 and D3.12, and didn't find anything.

C3.22 allows a Gun (vehicular or not) to "freely" change its CA at the end of a friendly fire phase in which it would still be allowed to fire without Intensive Fire.

D3.12 says something similar, referring to TCA:
D3.12 said:
The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA (Case A), or at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire (as per C3.22).
Here, however, instead of "vehicle", the word used is "AFV" - which means a vehicle with at least one armored facing; and it only mentions turning VCA for a non-turret-mounted weapon when it comes to this "free change".

Now, say a non-armored vehicle has a turret-mounted Gun, but no other weapon. Can it turn its TCA (without firing) at the end of, say, Defensive Fire if not marked with a Fire counter? Can it turn its VCA under the same conditions?

And what about an AFV whose weapons are all turret-mounted - can it still decide to "freely" turn its VCA (instead of TCA) under the same conditions?
 

Robin Reeve

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Do non AFV have turrets?
D1.63 and 1.64 seem to restrict turrets to armored superstructures.
 

Philippe D.

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The Soviet SU12 is listed as an unarmored, turreted vehicle (no counters with me to check).
 

klasmalmstrom

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Personally I think the use of "AFV" is just an oversight since the entire section is called AFV COMBAT. I can't see a reason why non-AFV vehicles should not have the same abilities in this regard.


And what about an AFV whose weapons are all turret-mounted - can it still decide to "freely" turn its VCA (instead of TCA) under the same conditions?
Yes.

D3.12:
"..or at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire (as per C3.22)...."
 

Robin Reeve

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The Soviet SU12 is listed as an unarmored, turreted vehicle (no counters with me to check).
Its gun is listed as "T", which means "fast turret traverse" (cf. Index): it is rather an indication of how to apply case A TH than the statement that the truck has a turret.
For an example, there would be no turret hit vs. that vehicle.
But you may be right, as C1.3 speaks of Turret-mounted MA.
So the restriction of the rule to AFV may indeed, as Klas wrote, an oversight.
 

Binchois

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I will agree with Klas here (I know...I'm REALLY going out on a limb here!). Not only is section D3 generically labelled "AFV COMBAT", but the entirety of the rule in question (D3.12) uses the word "vehicle" except the one, confusing, use of "AFV" (plus a specific reference to "BU CT AFV"):

D3.12 TURRET COVERED ARC (TCA): The TCA determines the Field of Fire of all turret-mounted weapons, and differs from the VCA only when a turret counter is placed on the vehicle with the Gun pointing toward a different hexspine than that of the vehicle counter. Should the TCA and VCA coincide and the vehicle is a BU CT (or CE OT) AFV, there is no need for a turret counter and it is removed. However, whenever a vehicle fires a turret-mounted weapon outside its VCA (To Hit Case A), the VCA is not changed (unless the vehicle uses the NT DRM application of Case A). Instead, a turret counter is placed so that the fired-on target lies within the TCA (see 3.51). The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA (Case A), or at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire (as per C3.22). The TCA may also change freely with each MP expended during the MPh. The TCA change must be announced as the MP are expended but can coincide with MP expended for movement, stop, start, or Delay purposes; i.e., the MP cost for a TCA change is not in addition to other MP expenditures. The MP expenditure required for a TCA change during its MPh is doubled if in a woods or building obstacle (not Bypassing those obstacles or on a road) or rubble hex (C5.11). For Narrow Streets see B31.12. The Target Facing of any turret/upper superstructure hit is based on the target's TCA -- not its VCA.
If the "AFV" usage was intentional, then "an AFV" would be preferable to "the AFV", and the specificity of the rule should have been stated more directly so that no one misses this important detail!
 

von Marwitz

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C3.22 allows a Gun (vehicular or not) to "freely" change its CA at the end of a friendly fire phase in which it would still be allowed to fire without Intensive Fire.
So if there is a friendly ATG in Woods. An enemy Assault Gun is some hexes away with its armament pointing in a direction not immediately threatening the ATG. The it is the end of the PFPh for the friendly side. The ATG decides to drop HIP, turn the CA "freely" towards the enemy Assault Gun. During the AFPh, the ATG could fire vs. the Assault Gun only affected by the +2DRM for firing in the AFPh but by not by any CA change penalties, that would otherwise have amounted to +6 (+3 for first hexspine changed for non-turreted gun, doubled for being in Woods). Correct?

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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So if there is a friendly ATG in Woods. An enemy Assault Gun is some hexes away with its armament pointing in a direction not immediately threatening the ATG. The it is the end of the PFPh for the friendly side. The ATG decides to drop HIP, turn the CA "freely" towards the enemy Assault Gun. During the AFPh, the ATG could fire vs. the Assault Gun only affected by the +2DRM for firing in the AFPh but by not by any CA change penalties, that would otherwise have amounted to +6 (+3 for first hexspine changed for non-turreted gun, doubled for being in Woods). Correct?
Correct. The Gun would also not be eligible for ROF. The Gun could also use Opportunity Fire, but then it could not change CA so it might as well fire in the PFPh if it was hoping for ROF.

JR
 

Philippe D.

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vM: this is essentially (in more colorful details) what C3.22 describes.

It's also not quite obvious how often this will be the preferred move for the ATG; usually, the same ATG would have had a Final Fire opportunity in the previous turn, for a hard shot (changing CA in Woods), but an even better one in Prep (no CA change, Acquisition). And in situations where the ATG were known beforehand (fired at a different target, say), the Assault Gun would likely have the ATG in its CA, and thus be a real threat. Barring something like Smoke clearing up, I don't see this being used a lot.
 

volgaG68

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D3.12 said:
The TCA may change as a result of firing a turret-mounted weapon outside its current TCA and the VCA may change for firing a turret/bow-mounted weapon outside its current VCA (Case A), or at the end of any friendly fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire (a turret-mounted weapon for TCA or turret/bow-mounted weapon for VCA) without using Intensive Fire (as per C3.22).

Thanks for posting this, Philippe D. I have long thought that a halftrack such as the German SPW 251/1 could change VCA at the end of a fire phase that it has not fired its AAMG, because it has not fired its MA. I can vaguely remember playing this correctly years ago, but somewhere along the line I forgot the specific restrictions for what kind of weapon one must have mounted in order to do this.

This just confirms my thought yesterday that it is high time for my annual re-read of Chapters A-D.
 

Mr Incredible

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Correct. The Gun would also not be eligible for ROF. The Gun could also use Opportunity Fire, but then it could not change CA so it might as well fire in the PFPh if it was hoping for ROF.

JR
Totally missed that nuance in the CA change. Might have to try that if the right opportunity comes up.

Not sure when, but might come in useful for some circumstance.

I guess it's weighing up the +6DRM for the CA change with rof in the PFPh to the +2DRM and no ROF in AFPh. I guess guns with a 2 or less ROF might choose to turn in the PFPh and fire in the AFPh whilst guns with a 3 ROF might want to try for the PFPh and get ROF and then take an +0DRM 2nd ROF shot.

Only thing is, the Gun will be revealed to any return fire in the DFPh and might never get the chance to shoot in the AFPh.
 
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