Change the foxhole rule? (B27.4)

Should rule B27.4 be changed?

  • Yes, all movement to/from a foxhole location should be cosnidered a single expenditure

    Votes: 58 28.7%
  • Yes, but only Assault moving units may benefit from the foxhole's TEM.

    Votes: 50 24.8%
  • No, the rule is fine as is.

    Votes: 94 46.5%

  • Total voters
    202

sarfs

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I'm actually with you on NOT changing the existing rule, but I would love to see someone create an optional or chrome SSR that made FH a little more useful within the GAME context.

I think your point about one's approach to the game is also an excellent analysis as well.

JT
i think pete's new rule about slit trenchs would work perfectly. it wouldn't change any existing scenario but would give designers more options to play with. the best of both worlds. case closed. nothing here to see. move along please.

jim
 

sarfs

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Well, Tom I was genuinely curious about reasons pro/con. As one who always sees the shades of gray, I have to use the status quo as the 'default choice' but appreciate of a good discussion of the issue.

The members of this forum did not disappoint.
IFT/IIFT debate, anyone :devious:
i think the "what nationality a newbie should play" thread is going to cover that.

jim
 

tppytel

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I voted "Yes, all movement" but I agree with some others that this would probably be more appropriate as a 3rd edition change rather than as an erratum. Are there any particular scenarios that anyone thinks would be completely changed by such a revision? It seems to me like the kind of thing that might shift the balance slightly, but shouldn't really break anything completely.
 

Will Fleming

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That is a good point but scenario designers gave foxholes to sides in the thought that they would help, but in reality, they seldom do or don't have the effectiveness intended.

I hate messing with all the scenarios out there but it probably wouldn't be that huge of an effect--provided some crafty players didn't find a gamy way to take advantage of 'shellholy foxholes'.

Perhaps scenario designers can make a fairly standard SSR that will get the job done. If it works out that people like it, it can make it into the rules in some form as deemed appropriate by MMP.

I would liken it to the change to encirclement for upper levels. AH didn't foresee everyone putting all their guys in the upper levels of buildings, forcing the defender to go a bit further to get them, but the tactic proved very effective. Thus all scenarios started having a "Encirclement applies to units in the upper levels of buildings who cannot trace a valid movement path to ground level free of enemy units" (or whatever it was)

Eventually, that change made it in the rulebook and is now standard. Playing with/without that SSR or version of the rules must affect some old scenarios, similar to a 'new' foxhole rule affecting the current ones.
 

Treadhead

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Not picking on you, Will.

... they seldom [help] or don't have the effectiveness intended.
I don't get this attitude.

Are there issues with Foxholes? Perhaps. (I posit that Routing through Foxholes is the real problem.)

Are there issues with just about every rule in ASL? Arguably.

I would suggest that players learn how to use Foxholes more effectively as they are, rather than complaining that they need to be fixed.

My opinion is that the "change all movement into combined MF costs" option probably hasn't been thought through all the way. Such a rule would change the entire dynamic of how Foxholes are played.

Sure, that's the point, right? But would it be a good change? I am highly doubtful.

And anyway, somebody please try to demonstrate that exiting a Foxhole in the middle of an open field does not invite some hazard. If you are clambering out of a foxhole, you should expect to take some heat from such an exposed position.

An awful lot of playtesting would be involved to demonstrate that such a change is a game system improvement, IMO.

Regards,
Bruce

[Edited]
 
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Tater

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I don't get this attitude.
It's not an "attitude"...it is an opinion regarding fxh.

Are there issues with Foxholes? Perhaps. (I posit that Routing through Foxholes is the real problem.)
Sure, let's make them even less useful than they are now...that will certainly solve the problem. H#ll, we ought to just delete fxh's from the counter mix. They are just taking up space in the planos and adding useless weight to travel kits.

Are there issues with just about every rule in ASL? Arguably.
We aren't discussing "every rule in ASL"...just this one. You want to talk about any others, start your own thread.

I would suggest that players learn how to use Foxholes more effectively as they are, rather than complaining that they need to be fixed.
:mad:

Are you even reading the posts Bruce?!?!

People have learned to use them more effectively...the most effective use of fxh is to NOT USE THEM! That is the problem.

And please, my point isn't based on reality...it is based on the Game. The fxh counter/fortification is clearly not being used as intended in the Game. Here we have a game counter that provides +2/+4 TEM that most players have learned NOT TO USE because of the entry/exit rules for said counter. THAT is a Game problem, not a reality problem.

My opinion is that the "change all movement into combined MF costs" option probably hasn't been thought through all the way.
I would posit that the original rules demonstrate a failure to think "through" all the way...which has lead to fxh not being used.

I covered your earlier points regarding some DFire (non-)issues. Combined movement cost for multi-terrain hexes/locations is actually more the norm than otherwise. The movement rules for entrenchment entry/exit are actually more of an exception to the standard. The DFire rules can easily handle it. So, go ahead and dream up all the fantasy issues you want...create all the ridiculous, fantastical scenarios you can and I will answer them one by one...:rolleyes:

Such a rule would change the entire dynamic of how Foxholes are played.
True...players would actually use them...heaven forbid!

Sure, that's the point, right? But would it be a good change? I am highly doubtful.
Great, your doubtful...what does that mean? You haven't presented even one cogent doubt at this point but hey, they are your doubts and you are certainly entitled to them.

And anyway, somebody please try to demonstrate that exiting a Foxhole in the middle of an open field does not invite some hazard. If you are clambering out of a foxhole, you should expect to take some heat from such an exposed position.
Why should fxh be exposed to any more hazard than leaving a woods, rubble, building, gully, stream, brush, grain, vineyard, orchard, wall/hedge, etc location? Answer: There is none...

Actually what was suggested is making entrenchments play like every other general terrain type while making them more useful.

An awful lot of playtesting would be involved to demonstrate that such a change is a game system improvement, IMO.
Like all the playtesting that was done before every other change that has been made over the last 20+ years. :nuts:
 

James Taylor

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And anyway, somebody please try to demonstrate that exiting a Foxhole in the middle of an open field does not invite some hazard. If you are clambering out of a foxhole, you should expect to take some heat from such an exposed position.
Since I'm advocating for a NEW FH SSR or optional rule I'm not worried about the testing. Include in the playtests for new scenarios and see how it plays there and then overtime players could choose to incorporate it or not.

However... the whole "exiting a Foxhole in the middle of open field is hazardous" thing is missing the point IMHO.

I'm not talking about FH at that level of detail. I'm talking about the overall usefulness within the context of the GAME. They don't fit in as well as they should IMHO. Skulking IS a game tactic, and FH suck with that tactic.

Sure exiting a FH in open ground was hazardous... but if somebody is 300 meters away and shooting a machine gun at me in a FH and I hunker down in the bottom of it are they likely to affect me? I doubt it. But in the context of the GAME they can.

Like Fish said, FH are most effective in response to OBA or bombardment.... possibly we need more of those to really see the value of FH. If EVERY scenario had a bombardment then you'd certainly see players wanting more FH.

I also agree with Fish that FH are too easy to dig... at least the real kind would be within the 2 minute game turn. However... the crappy ASL FH maybe not.

JT
 

RobZagnut

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How about an SSR for Foxholes that says:

"When moving into/out of a Foxhole a unit may apply the +2 TEM of the Foxhole to it's Movement TEM."

So, a unit moving into/out of a FH without Assault Movement would have a +0 TEM (-1 FFNAM, -1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).

A unit moving into/out of of FH using Assault Movement would have a +1 TEM (-1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).

Any designers willing to try this SSR in one of their scenarios that uses Foxholes?
 

Tater

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How about an SSR for Foxholes that says:

"When moving into/out of a Foxhole a unit may apply the +2 TEM of the Foxhole to it's Movement TEM."

So, a unit moving into/out of a FH without Assault Movement would have a +0 TEM (-1 FFNAM, -1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).

A unit moving into/out of of FH using Assault Movement would have a +1 TEM (-1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).

Any designers willing to try this SSR in one of their scenarios that uses Foxholes?
I assume the -1 FFMO wouldn't apply for fxh set-up in non-OG terrain. Also, are we talking about a combined MF expenditure?

If so then yeah, that is one heck of an idea.
 

Treadhead

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Tater said:
People have learned to use them more effectively...the most effective use of fxh is to NOT USE THEM! That is the problem.
Oh, but good sir. I disagree that non-use is the most effective use of Foxholes. Is that to say that such fellows disregard and do not use the Foxholes assigned by OB or SSR? Poor lads. They are short-changing their chances.

Here we have a game counter that provides +2/+4 TEM that most players have learned NOT TO USE because of the entry/exit rules for said counter. THAT is a Game problem, not a reality problem.
I say, is that a fact? Seems more a myth to me.

I must confess, good chap, that I find it difficult to conceive learning "not to use" a Foxhole.

I would posit that the original rules demonstrate a failure to think "through" all the way...which has lead to fxh not being used.
For whom are you speaking? Are you the spokesperson for this group of scarred and damaged players?

I take it with a healthy does of skepticism, that there has been any indication or other demonstration that even a small percentage of ASL players have learned, that the most effective use of Foxholes is to "not use them".

Maybe players aren't doing much Entrenching. Perhaps the OB-assigned Foxholes are poorly conceived for the scenario, leading to them not being used or abandoned.

But when Foxholes are available, there are ways to use them.

Combined movement cost for multi-terrain hexes/locations is actually more the norm than otherwise.
Irrelevant. So it is possible to create these combined MF, because it is commonly done with multiple terrain types. Big deal.

The movement rules for entrenchment entry/exit are actually more of an exception to the standard.
Could it be, perhaps, because Foxholes are Fortifications?

The DFire rules can easily handle it.
But sir, I never made any statements about how Defensive First Fire would handle it. I merely asked, "what about Defensive First Fire"?

Of course, the Defensive First Fire mechanic remains unchanged and can handle it. But the entire interaction between Defender and Attacker is dramatically altered.

Why is that change better? Oh wait, it is better for the Attacker.

So, go ahead and dream up all the fantasy issues you want...create all the ridiculous, fantastical scenarios you can and I will answer them one by one...:rolleyes:
Well, since I haven't dreamed up any yet, I don't suppose I'm about to start. What are you talking about here?

Why should fxh be exposed to any more hazard than leaving a woods, rubble, building, gully, stream, brush, grain, vineyard, orchard, wall/hedge, etc location? Answer: There is none...
Let me get this straight... oh, never mind.

Actually what was suggested is making entrenchments play like every other general terrain type while making them more useful.
And making them play like "every other general terrain type" would be good, because...?

My man, they are Fortifications. Man-made constructions. They are not at all like "general terrain". Not even in "reality".

More useful?

They're already pretty useful, for those who know.

Like all the playtesting that was done before every other change that has been made over the last 20+ years. :nuts:
Well okay, you got me there. But I can have standards, can't I?

Regards,
Bruce
 

Fred Ingram

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Since I'm advocating for a NEW FH SSR or optional rule I'm not worried about the testing. Include in the playtests for new scenarios and see how it plays there and then overtime players could choose to incorporate it or not.
JT
That might be a solution for this

It would be an OPTIONAL rule to use

Like battlefield integrity or a bunch of stuff in chapter E like interrogation etc

That would satisfy both camps I would think :rolleyes:
 

Faded 8-1

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Foxholes certainly aren't useless. They can afford anywhere from +1 to +4 net TEM (depending on the terrain they occupy and the type of incoming fire). That is significant, and can even be crucial. If the only cover I have as the defender is woods and the ability to set-up entrenched, and the attacker has OBA, you betcha I'll use my FH. +3 TEM is a lot better than -1.

However, the lack of the combined movement point expenditure to exit in MPh does curtail their usefulness, and, in scenarios with no OBA/MTR/OVR, often completely negates it.

There have been a number of times when I've purposely omitted the OB-given FH from my set-up because they were more of a liability than an asset. That's annoying. And borderline broken IMO.
 

Tater

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Oh, but good sir. I disagree that non-use is the most effective use of Foxholes. Is that to say that such fellows disregard and do not use the Foxholes assigned by OB or SSR? Poor lads. They are short-changing their chances.
Not even close...if there is no enemy OBA/bombardment to contend with the fxh's wouldn't be missed at all. Almost any other terrain that has at least a +1TEM would be preferable. Falling back and/or repositioning (maneuver) is a critical aspect to most defenses...the fxh rules are completely antithetical to such considerations.

I will say this, if one is on the attack (unlikely to need to fall back from a fxh) a fxh can be handy for setting up a firebase, overwatch, observation, etc, type position. But again, that is only because maneuver will be little or no consideration.

As a demonstration of how twisted fxh use as become, one can normally find dozens and dozens of fxh's being used in CG's. Not because of their (supposedly) advantageous protective capability...but rather because they represent a strategic position (perimeter determination)...strategic even though most will never be occupied by infantry.

Bottom line...fxh's in ASL are broken. Whatever they were intended to represent in the ASL abstraction is not how they are used in the ASL abstraction.
 

Treadhead

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Tater said:
Falling back and/or repositioning (maneuver) is a critical aspect to most defenses...the fxh rules are completely antithetical to such considerations.
If that is indeed the case, then perhaps Foxholes should not be used for such types of defenses.

Do Foxholes position exist to be popped into and out of during the ebb and flow of combat? I had always thought of them as fixed positions to be defended. If you are leaving them, you are losing.

... one can normally find dozens and dozens of fxh's being used in CG's. Not because of their (supposedly) advantageous protective capability...but rather because they represent a strategic position (perimeter determination)...strategic even though most will never be occupied by infantry.
I'll have to take your word on that. I haven't played a CG in many a year.

But dozens and dozens? Is that the PB CG? RB?

Whatever they were intended to represent in the ASL abstraction is not how they are used in the ASL abstraction.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.

So what should be "fixed": how they were intended, or how they are used?

Regards,
Bruce
 

Treadhead

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James Taylor said:
Skulking IS a game tactic, and FH suck with that tactic.
Yes, skulking is a GAME tactic. There is no actual activity or maneuver that is known as "skulking". It is not a declared action based on any simulated "real" event.

I have no problem with skulking, but it is only a player technique used with the game structure. It is not a rule or mechanic.

But the inability to use skulking with Foxholes does not suggest to me that the Foxhole rules are deficient; rather it suggests to me that Foxholes are not intended to be used in that way.

Being a Fortification, it always seemed to me that Foxholes were meant to be somewhere you held your ground. If you break in that ground, the Foxhole provides the cover that allows you to get out.

If one is trying to using skulking with Foxholes, I might suggest that it is an incorrect use of Foxholes. Within the ASL game system.

Regards,
Bruce
 

Treadhead

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Interesting

Robert Wolkey said:
How about an SSR for Foxholes that says:

"When moving into/out of a Foxhole a unit may apply the +2 TEM of the Foxhole to it's Movement TEM."

So, a unit moving into/out of a FH without Assault Movement would have a +0 TEM (-1 FFNAM, -1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).

A unit moving into/out of of FH using Assault Movement would have a +1 TEM (-1 FFMO, +2 FH TEM).
When moving into a Foxhole with combined MF, where is the unit for Defensive First Fire purposes?

If it breaks, is it beneath the Foxhole, or on top?

Are all MF expended beneath the Foxhole counter when entering the hex, or are any considered to be expende in the Location but outside the Foxhole?

When moving out of the Foxhole, e.g. from beneath a Foxhole and into an adjacent Building for combined 3 MF, what is the target hex for DFF purposes?

If the unit breaks, where is it placed, in the Foxhole hex on top of the Foxhole, or in the building hex?



There are differences between a Foxhole and a normal terrain feature. For non-fortification terrain, you are in the terrain entirely. You apply the TEM for that terrain.

But Foxholes are conditional. You may be beneath or on top of the Foxhole counter. It is in fact, supplemental to any other terrain in the Location.

I'm assuming the option will be retained to enter the Location without entering the Foxhole, or to exit the Foxhole without exiting the Location. Well, if we retain this characteristic, then we are basically admitting that a Foxhole is a unique type of terrain that the unit has to "enter" to take advantage of, or "exit" to leave.

Using combined MF circumvents that unique characteristic of Foxholes, namely that they are a separate, man-made terrain feature within the hex that is independent of other terrain.

Allowing units to enter and exit Foxholes as if they were Buildings or Woods, does not respect the inherent (and designed) characteristic of a Foxhole as represented in ASL.

Regards,
Bruce
 

tppytel

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I'll have to take your word on that. I haven't played a CG in many a year.

But dozens and dozens? Is that the PB CG? RB?
In my KGP CG, I've got about 10 vehicular crews that (pre-setup) abandoned their 251/1's, handed off their LMG's to other squads (allowable by SSR), and are now on digging duty, just for the purpose of creating strategic locations. It really is rather silly.
 

jwb3

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Regarding the point made by 2Bit and others about it being too easy to dig foxholes:

This is a wonderful opportunity to discuss the designers' actual thinking regarding foxholes -- namely, abstraction and design for effect. Of course no one could dig a meaningful foxhole during the 2 minute time span of a turn, and of course the designers knew that. But always remember that the time span of an SL/ASL turn is not to be taken literally: It's "a module of time, such that the following events can occur and interact with one another." In the case of the foxhole-digging, that might mean the turn represents an hour -- even while, halfway across the board, the same turn only represents ten seconds in the life of two AFVs as they duke it out with each other.

What was the effect John Hill was designing for in this case? He wanted to represent the fact that, as people have commented here, the first thing you do when you occupy a new position and plan to stay there (and aren't being shot at) is start digging foxholes -- but that it's a very time-consuming activity which is not to be undertaken lightly. So, he assigned a chance to dig foxholes (5 or less in the original SL rules) which is high enough to make it worth doing in the middle of a game, but not high enough to make it easy.

It was totally about the game mechanics -- though he was trying to simulate a reality, reality had nothing to do with the mechanics. Design for effect.

As a demonstration of how twisted fxh use as become, one can normally find dozens and dozens of fxh's being used in CG's. Not because of their (supposedly) advantageous protective capability...but rather because they represent a strategic position (perimeter determination)...strategic even though most will never be occupied by infantry.
Right. A great example of unintended consequences by the designers. "Foxholes are strategically important, therefore they should be Strategic Locations" became "Foxholes are Strategic Locations, therefore they should be dug every five hexes apart."


BTW, since I'm looking at the original SL rules anyway, it may be worthwhile (to some of you -- YMMV) to review how things worked back then:

- In the original SL rule chapter (54.), an example clearly showed that the cost to enter the hex and the cost to enter the entrenchment were combined into one. If fired on by DF in that hex, the unit that moved into the entrenchment used the +2 modifer. [At that stage of the system's development, DF was retroactive, meaning that you didn't fire "on an MF" - what we know as Defensive First Fire today was an optional rule. That rule stated that you fire "as soon as the moving player enters a hex" where you want to shoot at him.]

- But 54. said nothing about what to do for DF when a unit moved out of the entrenchment. Clearly, the subject must not have come up during playtesting. So, it was left to a Q&A in CoI to answer that question: It said that, since the unit is spending an MF in an open ground hex as it leaves the entrenchment, it may be fired upon with the open ground modifier (which was then -2).

So, you could shoot at it with the -2 as it left the entrenchment, but not as it entered the entrenchment -- not due to any concept of "this is how reality works", but because they were patching the holes in the rules one Q&A at a time.

- However, not only did the players notice the logical contradiction, but the optional DF method was becoming the de facto standard method. Thus, more and more players were shooting at the moving unit as it entered the hex, at which time it was not (logically) in the entrenchment yet. This must have led to a lot of questions, because in CoD, the designers clarified the CoI Q&A: They specifically stated that a unit may not be fired on with the -2 as it enters the entrenchment, the -2 only applies when it leaves.

- However, during the redesign of the system into ASL, the logical contradiction was finally resolved.

- Note that skulking out of your foxhole was just as bad an idea in SL as it is in ASL; even then, you could be fired on as you left it.

- In SL, routing units did not have to actually enter the entrenchment to rout safely through the hex. Just the fact that it was an entrenchment hex made it not open ground, so they were free to rout through for 1 MF. So, there was no contradiction between it being one MF expenditure for routing units and separate MF expenditures for good order ones, but there was a deeper contradiction between how routers and good order units moved.


John
 

jwb3

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But the inability to use skulking with Foxholes does not suggest to me that the Foxhole rules are deficient; rather it suggests to me that Foxholes are not intended to be used in that way.

Being a Fortification, it always seemed to me that Foxholes were meant to be somewhere you held your ground. If you break in that ground, the Foxhole provides the cover that allows you to get out.

If one is trying to using skulking with Foxholes, I might suggest that it is an incorrect use of Foxholes. Within the ASL game system.
Bruce,

The issue is not that Foxholes are bad for skulking, the issue is that skulking is all too often a better way to hold your ground than being in a Foxhole!

Under the ideal circumstances for its use, skulking is 99% foolproof -- you exit the LOS of all enemy units, you become immune to all enemy fire, and the only thing that can possibly go wrong is an attack by the enemy sniper that prevents you from returning in the APh. By comparison, staying in the Foxhole and soaking up the enemy's shots is much more risky. Even if you only have a 10% chance of being affected by the enemy's fire, that's still a lot worse odds than the 1% chance of that sniper happening.

In that situation, skulking automatically reduces your odds of being affected by enemy fire by almost 50% each game turn, because the enemy loses one of their two shooting phases. How often is the extra TEM of the Foxhole going to give you that good an ROI?

Yeah, Foxholes are good for the stand and die defense. But skulking is good for the stand and don't die defense! :D


John
 
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