CC vs vehical

[Simon62]

Hi,

Can’t get our head around this - the situation is as follows playing RB:

It is the German player turn And a German Stug IIIb enters via bypass a hex containing a fortified building and a Russian unit with 2 MG’s the stug declares use of all its remaining MP to enter the bypass hex thus ending its movement in motion in bypass.

We think the following is the correct procedure but not sure - our thinking has come from reading the section A CC rules, the section D overrun rules and the overrun flowchart.

1) Russian inf takes a PAATC - it is conscript morale of 6 and not in a factory so not fanatic - needs to roll a 5 or less to pass the PAATC (inexperienced +1 to PAATC)

2) if it fails it is pinned and thus German infantry could advance in the advance phase into the fortified building and engage in CC if in a position to do so.

3) if it passes it can attack the stug using reaction first fire with street fighting ambush as follows - CCV is a 5 - 1 for inexperienced thus 4. DR mods are +2 motion vehicle, -1 no MG’s’s, -1 street fighting ambush net 0 DR mod meaning the Russian needs to roll <= 4 to effect the stug.

4) assuming the Russian misses the first fire he can then reaction fire again as SFF As follows no extra PAATC is required. CCV is 5 -1 for inexperienced -1 for SFF(1/2firepower) for a net CCV of 3. DR mods are net 0 as per the first fire meaning he needs <=3 to effect the stug.

5) in the subsequent CC phase of the German player turn can the infantry again reaction fire against the tank as CC? Does it have to take another PAATC?

6) in the following Russian player turn can the infantry unit use reaction fire against the stug in the prep fire, adv fire phases or does it have to wait to the CC phase? Again would it need to take a PAATC?

Apologies for such a large question but the rules seem to be in multiple places and are quite confusing. We Would be grateful if someone could confirm our steps 1-4 and answer the question for point 5 & 6

Regards and thanks for the help

Simon

 

[Sparafucil3]

5) in the subsequent CC phase of the German player turn can the infantry again reaction fire against the tank as CC? Does it have to take another PAATC?

6) in the following Russian player turn can the infantry unit use reaction fire against the stug in the prep fire, adv fire phases or does it have to wait to the CC phase? Again would it need to take a PAATC?

Apologies for such a large question but the rules seem to be in multiple places and are quite confusing. We Would be grateful if someone could confirm our steps 1-4 and answer the question for point 5 & 6

Regards and thanks for the help

Simon

One through four look correct to me.
5) It would not be "Reaction Fire" in CC, it is simple CC. The mods would be as you initially calculated in your #3 unless German Infantry is present which would give the AFV a covering Infantry unit. There would be no PAATC in CC Phase. There would be no Ambush DR in the CC Phase unless Infantry advanced in. You would not be held in melee by a Motion AFV, but you would by any enemy Infantry that may have moved into the Location.

6) It may attack in Prep or AFPh if it hasn't attacked. It makes no sense not to attack in Prep if you're going to attack at all. Remember you're not locked in Melee if the AFV is in motion so you are free to run away if it makes sense. If for some reason the situation has not changed, then of course, you may attack again in the Russian CC Phase, no PAATC, as commented above.

Hope this helps. -- jim

 

[Simon62]

Thanks Jim - just what we needed to clarify

Regards
Simon

 

[Sparafucil3]

Thanks Jim - just what we needed to clarify

Regards
Simon

I forgot to add: CC would be sequential. -- jim

 

[Mister T]

4) assuming the Russian misses the first fire he can then reaction fire again as SFF As follows no extra PAATC is required. CCV is 5 -1 for inexperienced -1 for SFF(1/2firepower) for a net CCV of 3. DR mods are net 0 as per the first fire meaning he needs <=3 to effect the stug.

Net CCV is <=2 to affect the stug because the street fighting -1 DRM does not apply any more in SFF (A11.8).

 

[Simon62]

Hi yep we realise it’s was sequential with the Russian infantry attacking first - as the stug is BU with no MG’s or riders we don’t think it can attack.

One point note b on the overrun table states “PAATC required vs AFV if the unit is not exempt and has not yet taken a PAATC against this vehicular in this phase” this would indicate to us that it would need to take another PAATC to attack again in the CC phase and then again take Another PAATC to attack in the next prep fire phase?

Simon

 

[Sparafucil3]

One point note b on the overrun table states “PAATC required vs AFV if the unit is not exempt and has not yet taken a PAATC against this vehicular in this phase” this would indicate to us that it would need to take another PAATC to attack again in the CC phase and then again take Another PAATC to attack in the next prep fire phase?

No PAATC required in CC Phase. You would need a new PAATC in the Prep Fire Phase. -- jim

 

[Eagle4ty]

No PAATC required in CC Phase. You would need a new PAATC in the Prep Fire Phase. -- jim

1) No PAATC required at all upon the AFV's entry into the hex and decision to remain in BP of the location unless the unit wishes to engage in CC RF.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

You can't attack the StuG in the PFPh using CC Reaction Fire.

 

[Pyth]

Klas got there first. but anyway...

"Need a new PAATC in the Prep Fire Phase" is the kind of mistake no one ever actually makes playing the game but are so easy to do when untangling rules on Games Squad.

One point note b on the overrun table states “PAATC required vs AFV if the unit is not exempt and has not yet taken a PAATC against this vehicular in this phase” this would indicate to us that it would need to take another PAATC to attack again in the CC phase and then again take Another PAATC to attack in the next prep fire phase?

I think you are reading more into 'note b' than is there. Note b (in my opinion) is telling you that CC reaction fire, requires a PAATC to have been passed at some point earlier in the phase.

As Attackers in the Prep fire phase the infantry would be able to use whatever weapons it has (LATWs? MGs as Ordnance? FP vs CE PRC) to fire at the same-location AFV but those attacks do not require a PAATC. If the vehicle and the infantry survive to the Advance phase the infantry would still not need to pass another PAATC because it isn't advancing into the AFV location, its already there. As for CC, (I'm pretty sure...-->) PAATC is never required in the regular CCph -- it has either happened earlier (in DFF/DFPh, or in APh) or it wasn't needed. If infantry sits tight when the AFV enters its location and attacks the AFV with CC for the first time in the CCph, no PAATC needed.

PAATC is Pre-AFV Advance/Attack Task-Check... and this slight misnomer helps me remember:

1. PAATCs are taken when infantry Advance into an enemy AFV location ("Advance"). 2. Paatc's occur for CC-reaction-fire ("Attack"), and 3. PAATCS occur when a vehicle enters a concealed unit's location -- A12.41. (which doesn't fit either Advance or Attack..)

 

[klasmalmstrom]

PAATC is Pre-AFV Advance/Attack Task-Check... and this slight misnomer helps me remember:

1. PAATCs are taken when infantry Advance into an enemy AFV location ("Advance"). 2. Paatc's occur for CC-reaction-fire ("Attack"), and 3. PAATCS occur when a vehicle enters a concealed unit's location -- A12.41. (which doesn't fit either Advance or Attack..)

Also when attempting to Place a DC vs an AFV.

 

[bendizoid]

If the Stug spent 3 or more MP in bypass the squad could FPF, continuing the CC reaction fire one time each for every ‘extra’ MP spent. If you roll snake eyes you get both leader creation and HOB, which is about the coolest thing ever, considering the vehicle must be messed up. Trifecta.