CC Rule Question

beast013

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A question came up in a recent ASL VASL game that needs clarification.

During the CCPh, a Russian 447 squad attacked a Finnish Squad and a Finnish half squad at 1:2 odds, one big battle. The defender stated that he was attacking at 2:1 odds, also one big battle. On the attack, the Russian rolled a natural three, which eliminated the defender. The Finnish defender rolled a natural 2 (snake eyes). So, what happens? The question involves rule 11.22 and the defender’s roll of two. Who is eliminated (attacker, defender, both, etc.) and what else, if anything, happens?

Thanks in advance!
 

klasmalmstrom

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beast013 said:
A question came up in a recent ASL VASL game that needs clarification.

During the CCPh, a Russian 447 squad attacked a Finnish Squad and a Finnish half squad at 1:2 odds, one big battle. The defender stated that he was attacking at 2:1 odds, also one big battle. On the attack, the Russian rolled a natural three, which eliminated the defender. The Finnish defender rolled a natural 2 (snake eyes). So, what happens? The question involves rule 11.22 and the defender’s roll of two. Who is eliminated (attacker, defender, both, etc.) and what else, if anything, happens?

Thanks in advance!
I believe they all die. Since the Finnish units have already been eliminated when they rolled their 1,1 they no longer have the option to withdraw.

And that is assuming that Field Promotion is NA for the Finnish, even in this case (not just NA during Self-Rally).

A11.22:
"Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders (see also Field Promotions; 18.12)."
 

klasmalmstrom

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sgtono said:
Is there not a withdrawal issue here since snake eyes was rolled?
Well my answer assumed that the Russian Player was the attacker and go to roll his CC DR first.

Then when the Finnish player rolls his 1,1 - he has already been eliminated. See the rules quote in my previous post.
 

beast013

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Yes, the Russian was the attacker and rolled first. BTW - there were no Field Promotions for the Finns.
 

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Withdrawl would be an issue if there were any Finnish left to withdraw, however because Leader Creation is NA for the Finnish the odds won't change.

If the ATTACKER rolls a 2 and eliminates all the defenders, then the ATTACKER's units may withdraw prior to the DEFENDER rolling, however if the ATTACKER remains in the location the DEFENDER still gets to roll (with the possibility of an extra Leader changing the odds).

So there is a slight edge to being the ATTACKER in simultaneous CC (at least 3% of the time).

Later,
Jeff
 

beast013

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Tompy said:
Withdrawl would be an issue if there were any Finnish left to withdraw, however because Leader Creation is NA for the Finnish the odds won't change.

If the ATTACKER rolls a 2 and eliminates all the defenders, then the ATTACKER's units may withdraw prior to the DEFENDER rolling, however if the ATTACKER remains in the location the DEFENDER still gets to roll (with the possibility of an extra Leader changing the odds).

So there is a slight edge to being the ATTACKER in simultaneous CC (at least 3% of the time).

Later,
Jeff
The Russians were the attacker and went first - rolling a three. The Finns were the defender and went second rolling the two.
 

klasmalmstrom

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beast013 said:
The Russians were the attacker and went first - rolling a three. The Finns were the defender and went second rolling the two.
In that case they all die - no one left to withdraw.
 

Ole Boe

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Klas is correct.

Remember that although normal CC is simultaneous, the dice rolling is still sequential, ATTACKER first. So the ATTACKER gets a successful elimination result, regardless of the DEFENDER's later snakes.

It seems to me that many players roll the CC dice simultaneously. This should not be done, since it gives the ATTACKER an unfair advantage in the cases that the ATTACKER rolls snakes.

If the DEFENDER has already rolled, the ATTACKER not only eliminates the DEFENDER, he will also know in advance (by looking at the DEFENDER's roll) whether he should withdraw (to avoid a low roll by the DEFENDER), or is able to stay safely in place if so desired.
 

Fritz

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Could someone clarify this CC situation for me?

A single Japanese stack is Banzai-ing a lone ANZAC squad. Eventually only a wounded Japanese leader enters the target hex. The ANZAC squad FPFs and misses the leader but breaks itself. As the Banzai charge is over the stack has a CC counter placed on top, right?

So, in the Rout Phase, is the broken unit considered in Melee or may it rout out of the hex?

Thanks.
 

Ole Boe

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Fritz said:
As the Banzai charge is over the stack has a CC counter placed on top, right?
Right.

So, in the Rout Phase, is the broken unit considered in Melee or may it rout out of the hex?
It may rout (assuming a legal rout path).

As you said yourself, it has a CC counter, which means a few things, one of them is that it is not yet Melee.
 

CHERDE

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Ole Boe said:
Klas is correct.

Remember that although normal CC is simultaneous, the dice rolling is still sequential, ATTACKER first. So the ATTACKER gets a successful elimination result, regardless of the DEFENDER's later snakes.

It seems to me that many players roll the CC dice simultaneously. This should not be done, since it gives the ATTACKER an unfair advantage in the cases that the ATTACKER rolls snakes.

If the DEFENDER has already rolled, the ATTACKER not only eliminates the DEFENDER, he will also know in advance (by looking at the DEFENDER's roll) whether he should withdraw (to avoid a low roll by the DEFENDER), or is able to stay safely in place if so desired.
1)I fully agree with Ole.

2)There is a good thread to the related topic of Field promotion (A 18.12) featuring the US and the Japanese.

3)Be careful not to mix up A 11.22 with A 11.41. In journal #4 pg. 11 1st column the author of "The fine art of bushwackin" IMHO made this mistake.

4) Is the term bushwackin politically correct?
 
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