CC recapture of abandoned Tank

Fiedler

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What prohibits a crew that failed its immob TC to recapture the abandoned AFV in the CC phase, in the same turn the AFV was evacuated ? No enemy in same loc as abandoned AFV

I have a vague feeling something stops them but cant find what..
 

jrv

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CC can only happen when there are friendly and enemy in the same Location (with amendment for pillboxes) [A11.1]. If the vehicle were enemy it could be captured automatically at the end of the CCPh [A21.2]. Since it is not enemy it may not be captured.

JR
 

Fiedler

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But A21.2 makes no distinction of enemy Abandoned or friendly abandoned, It merely states abandoned.

Nothing in that rule stops auto capture?
 

jrv

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This is the q&a:

q&a said:
A21.2 & D5.42 1). Friendly Infantry in the same Location as an Abanoned enemy vehicle are not in a CC Location if no other enemy units are present (because an Abandoned vehicle is not a
Unit because it is incapable of movement (Index)). So said Friendly Infantry may not Capture the AFV using A21.2 mechanics because said Infantry is not in a CC Location. Yes?
A. No. Read the sentence right before that. An Abandoned enemy AFV may be automatically captured at the end of the CCPh, regardless of being in a “CC Location” or not.
2). May a Friendly AFV be Crewed this way?
A. No, unless actually in CC.
The rule is pretty clear: if there are no enemy Personnel, an *enemy* vehicle can be captured automatically. If it is a CC Location then it can be captured by making a CC capture attempt.

JR
 

B.Lizt

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This came up in at scenario we currently play (DTF 15 Storming Lommel) where the brits set up two abandoned AFVs in road locations with the crews in buildings.
If the crews can move or advance out into the road, and recrew them in the CCPh, the AFV come into play almost a full turn earlier, and have a much better chance to avoid being shot up.
The rules on the subject are somewhat contradictory, and I do not find that the above mentioned Q&A solves the issue.

First of all the Q&A above has a couple of mistakes.
  1. An Abandoned vehicle is a Unit, as it is normally capable of movement. If it had not been a unit, it would not be possible to capture an Abandoned vehicle in CC at all, as A11.1 specifically states that "CC is a form of attack which can occur .... between opposing units ....".
  2. A Friendly AFV may obviously not be crewed in this way, as it is not Abandoned, and the A) here is not absolute, as it has the exception "unless actually in CC".
(BTW, where is this Q&A to be found - I'm not able to locate it.... )

To recrew an Abandoned vehicle, an infantry unit have to start the MPh in the same location (D5.42), but rule A21.2 is cited as a specific exception.
A21.2 states that an Abandoned enemy AFV may be captured automatically by any Infantry unit in the same location at the end of a CCPh, if there are no enemy Personnel in the Location.
It also states that "Otherwise", i.e. if enemy Personnel are present, "an Abandoned AFV can be captured only by a CC attack capture attempt in a CC Location", and that both sides could attempt capture.
Here A21.2 is a specific exception to A11.1, as the Abandoned AFV is clearly not opposing neither your own nor your opponents infantry unit, but is quite passive until actually recrewed.

Now there is another interesting Q&A to A7.4 and D5.4
A7.4 & D5.4
Is an abandoned vehicle still a unit? If it is a unit, is a previously friendly vehicle which was abandoned still a friendly unit, thus preventing another friendly unit to fire on it? If it is not a unit, may an abandoned vehicle be fired upon?

A. An Abandoned vehicle is a unit, but it is neither friendly nor enemy and can be attacked by either side.

This makes it quite plain; an Abandoned vehicle is a unit, but neither friendly nor enemy, which makes sense to me, as it is not capable of any kind of action or combat.
Still, things are not crystal clear, as A21.2 uses the expression "Abandoned enemy AFV".
To me it seems the better solution to ignore "enemy" in this sentence, as it otherwise would contradict the above Q&A (7.4&D5.4).

Imagine the following:
  1. A German PzI is immobilized in a hex with an Abandoned French B1-bis and an Abandoned German PzIII. The crew fail their TC and exit the vehicle. Now, if they survive until the CCPh and there are no enemy infantry units in hex, per the Q&A in the above post, they could neither recrew their own vehicle nor the other German Panzer, but they could recrew the B1-bis with which they are totally unfamiliar.
  2. A German PzIV is immobilized by enemy prep fire. Per the Q&A in the above post they could not recrew their own vehicle in the CCPh, unless an enemy infantry unit actually advances in for CC (and they make the capture DR), which in my view would make things harder, not easier /possible.
Both 1) and 2) are nonsensical IMO.

OH
 

Bill Kohler

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B.Lizt, there is a minor contradiction in the Perry Sez that you quoted for A7.4 & D5.4. It says that "an abandoned AFV" is neither friendly nor enemy: but this is clearly not a universal stricture, for if you read A21.2 you see mention of "an Abandoned enemy AFV". Aware of that contradiction, we must read your Perry Sez in light of the specific question that was asked at the time: that question was "who can fire at an abandoned AFV?" and the answer is "anybody".

With regard to A21.2, please notice that the word "enemy" here is being used in a different sense. Across all of section A21, the term "enemy" means "originally belonging to the opponent's OoB", as is clear from the context.*

Accordingly, the ability granted in A21.2 to automatically capture an "enemy" vehicle at the end of a CCPh refers only to vehicles that originally belonged to the opponent (which the Q&A quoted by jrv corroborates). COWTRA says that we cannot extend this rule to apply to vehicles that originally belonged to us.

In regards to the 2 points that you labeled as "nonsensical", they do indeed seem absurd. But also remember that the Sequence of Play in ASL is an abstraction--an artificial construct that allows players to sequentially take actions of various types that in real life would all be simultaneous. But the SoP is there to make the game playable, and to make it harder for players to "game the system"--say, for instance, by abandoning an AFV in the MPh and then re-crewing it in the CCPh of the same player turn, which would be possible if A21.2 didn't include the word "enemy".

----------------

* - When you fire a captured MG, that MG is--at the moment--"friendly" in the sense that it's in your possession and that your opponent sees it as an "enemy" SW; but to you it's also an "enemy" MG in the sense that it was manufactured by a foreign nation with which you're currently at war and hence less familiar to you than your own nation's weapons.
 
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B.Lizt

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Hi Bill

I saw that minor contradiction, and I also see the different meanings.
I am also quite clear this is also only a game - an abstraction - and not real life :)
As such it might be an option that rule A21.2 is less than perfectly worded....

I certainly do not find that Q&A A21.2 & D5.42 solves the issue, as it contains several mistakes.

Therefore I cite Q&A A7.4 & D5.4.
Note that this Q&A refers to both A7.4 Target determination and D5.4 Abandonment, which at least implies that an abandoned vehicle is considered neither friendly nor enemy for more than just target determination issues.

I also see that a crew abandoning an AFV in bypass of a building in the MPh (in order to gain control of said building), and then "capturing" its AFV in automatic CC would be quite sleazy.
And I see that a crew abandoning its immobilized tank after failing at TC, should not necessarily be allowed to recrew it in the immediately following CCPh.
But that could be solved with an errata saying you may not recrew your own tank the same player turn it is abandoned.

Historically there are stories of crews abandoning their vehicle after at hit, but recrewing it after checking the damage - without enemy infantry present to enable CC :)

I say we need a more authoritative Q&A on this issue.

OH
 

Bill Kohler

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B.Lizt: apologies if my response came across as condescending--it wasn't meant to. It's hard at times, in text-only conversations, to infer precisely which issues and nuances are or aren't agreed upon, so I usually try to cast a wide net.

My points were simply (1) the quoted Perry Sez discussed "enemy" for purposes of targeting, (2) A21 uses "enemy" in a different sense, (3) as written, A21.2 restricts automatic CCPh re-crewing to enemy-nationality vehicles, and (4) some aspects of ASL can seem absurd but that doesn't mean that the rule in question is unintended.

I agree that A21.2 could be worded better. Many rules in the ASLRB could be.

But to me, after participating in this discussion, the intent of the rule seems clear. But I certainly have no problem with a new Q&A or with a rewrite of the pertinent rulebook sentence.

Cheers!
 
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J. R. Tracy

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Accordingly, the ability granted in A21.2 to automatically capture an "enemy" vehicle at the end of a CCPh refers only to vehicles that originally belonged to the opponent (which the Q&A quoted by jrv corroborates). COWTRA says that we cannot extend this rule to apply to vehicles that originally belonged to us.
However, the third sentence of A21.2 says, "Otherwise, an Abandoned AFV can be captured..." with no mention of 'enemy'. So I believe a friendly unit can recrew but as an actual capture attempt. If it's an originally friendly vehicle, even recrewed by its original crew, it still suffers the penalties of A21.22.
 

J. R. Tracy

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FWIW, I believe the general intent is you shouldn't recrew your own vehicles through capture attempts. You can if you feel you must, but you will suffer some penalties.
 

Doug Leslie

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However, the third sentence of A21.2 says, "Otherwise, an Abandoned AFV can be captured..." with no mention of 'enemy'. So I believe a friendly unit can recrew but as an actual capture attempt. If it's an originally friendly vehicle, even recrewed by its original crew, it still suffers the penalties of A21.22.
A21.2 is limited to the situation where opposing units are in CC in a hex containing an abandoned vehicle. It does not give carte blanche to infantry "capturing" a friendly vehicle in the CCPh in a location where no CC is taking place.

Otherwise, an Abandoned AFV can be captured only by a CC attack capture attempt in a CC Location—even though it is Abandoned. Both sides could attempt to capture it and therefore the Infantry of both sides in that location would qualify as a "Personnel Escort" for the Abandoned AFV's defense until it is controlled by one side or the other.
 

Bill Kohler

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However, the third sentence of A21.2 says, "Otherwise, an Abandoned AFV can be captured..." with no mention of 'enemy'. So I believe a friendly unit can recrew but as an actual capture attempt.
I agree: an Abandoned "friendly" AFV (e.g., one that was originally in your own OOB) may be captured during the CCPh, but to do so you must be in a CC Location with opposing enemy units, per the 3rd sentence of A21.2. (The OP stipulated that there were no enemy units in the Location with the abandoned AFV--which I've been tacitly assuming.)

If it's an originally friendly vehicle, even recrewed by its original crew, it still suffers the penalties of A21.22.
I had a response from Perry 20 years ago on this issue (and, since I dug it out, I see that it also addressed the earlier question as well).

A21.2 & D5.42
1). Friendly Infantry in the same Location as an Abandoned enemy vehicle are not in a CC Location if no other enemy units are present (because an Abandoned vehicle is not a Unit because it is incapable of movement (Index)). So said Friendly Infantry may not Capture the AFV using A21.2 mechanics because said Infantry is not in a CC Location. Yes?
A. No. Read the sentence right before that. An Abandoned enemy AFV may be automatically captured at the end of the CCPh, regardless of being in a “CC Location” or not.

2). May a Friendly AFV be Crewed this way?
A. No, unless actually in CC.

3). If so, is the Crew a Temporary Crew subject to A21.22 penalties (whether or not this was automatic or after CC)? Or, for that matter, A21.11 and A21.12 penalties?
A. No penalties for recapturing your own vehicle, except the A21.13 penalties if appropriate.

4). D5.42 makes no statement with regard to the prior ownership of an Abandoned vehicle that becomes re-Crewed. May Friendly Infantry use the D5.42 mechanics to Crew Abandoned enemy vehicles (when no other KEU are in that Location)?
A. Yes, though they could have also used A21.2 in the preceding CCPh, assuming no enemy Personnel were in that Location.

5). If yes, and if they do, are they exempt from the A21.22 Temporary Crew penalties with regard to their subsequent use of that vehicle?
A. No.

6). The penalties of A21.11-.13 would still apply, yes?
A. Yes.

--Bill Kohler to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 10 November 2001
 
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B.Lizt

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I had a response from Perry 20 years ago on this issue (and, since I dug it out, I see that it also addressed the earlier question as well).
Thank you Bill. The full Q&A is helpful. Where do I find it? It is not in Klas compilation, but he had it, and posted in on another forum where we have a discussion on the same issue.

I do agree that the intent seems to be that you should not be able to capture a "friendly" Abandoned AFV in CC.
But that has some absurd consequenses;
  • you may if enemy infantry is present - which would rather make it harder, IMO...
  • you may capture an "enemy" Abandoned AFV if present in the same hex (even if no enemy infantry is present) - which should be no easier...
I still think we need a definite Q&A on this for three reasons.

I) Rule A21.2 leaves room for misunderstandings or at least questions, as is obvious from these debates.

II) The Q&A you received is not clear
2). May a Friendly AFV be Crewed this way?
A. No, unless actually in CC.

A Friendly AFV is not Abandoned, and may obviously not be crewed in this way, as it is already crewed. I know everybody (even I) assumes the question to regard an Abandoned Friendly AFV, but it isn't worded that way, which leaves the issue open for debate.

The answer is also unclear (circular), as there would be actual CC in the hex if you could recrew a Friendly Abandoned AFV in this way.

III) Most importantly, the Q&A to A7.4 and D5.4 defines that an Abandoned vehicle as a unit, but neither friendly nor enemy. As A21.2 uses these terms to define what you may and may not attack and when, A21.2 either need an errata or a Q&A to define that the other Q&A does not apply in this situation.

Olav
 

Bill Kohler

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I do agree that the intent seems to be that you should not be able to capture a "friendly" Abandoned AFV in CC.
But that has some absurd consequenses;
  • you may if enemy infantry is present - which would rather make it harder, IMO...
  • you may capture an "enemy" Abandoned AFV if present in the same hex (even if no enemy infantry is present) - which should be no easier...
I don't think these consequences are absurd: I think they're there intentionally to prevent abuse, as we've both discussed earlier in this thread.

I still think we need a definite Q&A on this for three reasons.
I) Rule A21.2 leaves room for misunderstandings or at least questions, as is obvious from these debates.
Most other posters appear to think that the intent of these pertinent rules are determinable as is--and I agree. (Yes, they could be a little clearer, but they work as is.)
I think the only true issue is "friendly"/"enemy" being used in two different senses. The A21 sense is that of "originally friendly" / "originally enemy". In the rest of the rules, the sense is usually "currently friendly" / "currently enemy". In the vast majority of cases, these two senses overlap.

II) The Q&A you received is not clear
2). May a Friendly AFV be Crewed this way?
A. No, unless actually in CC.

A Friendly AFV is not Abandoned, and may obviously not be crewed in this way, as it is already crewed. I know everybody (even I) assumes the question to regard an Abandoned Friendly AFV, but it isn't worded that way, which leaves the issue open for debate.

The answer is also unclear (circular), as there would be actual CC in the hex if you could recrew a Friendly Abandoned AFV in this way.
Yes, twenty years ago, when I was just learning ASL, I could've worded the question better, but I think the intent is readily discernible if you read the entirety of the Q&A.

III) Most importantly, the Q&A to A7.4 and D5.4 defines that an Abandoned vehicle as a unit, but neither friendly nor enemy. As A21.2 uses these terms to define what you may and may not attack and when, A21.2 either need an errata or a Q&A to define that the other Q&A does not apply in this situation.
I think it's this latter Q&A which is problematic. But, as you probably know, Q&A are not "official"; they are not "part of the ruleset". But they are very helpful. Since this Q&A is problematic, I suggest not using it universally, but only for the purposes of the specific question that was asked.
 
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J. R. Tracy

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Thanks for digging up that old Q&A, Bill. The bit about needing an enemy unit present was new to me but otherwise it jibes with my understanding. Basically, if you want your tank back, climb back inside in a dignified manner in the MPh, or punch a Nazi in the face along the way and suffer captured use penalties accordingly.
 

Bill Kohler

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Thanks for digging up that old Q&A, Bill. The bit about needing an enemy unit present was new to me but otherwise it jibes with my understanding. Basically, if you want your tank back, climb back inside in a dignified manner in the MPh, or punch a Nazi in the face along the way . . .
I have no issue with everything you've said up to this point.

. . . and suffer captured use penalties accordingly.
But this is where Perry's 20-year-ago response raises a conflict: No penalties for recapturing your own vehicle, except the A21.13 penalties if appropriate.

I have taken his response (if I understand it correctly) to basically say . . .
--if Germans are manning a German tank or Americans are manning an American tank, then whether they crewed it via the CCPh process [either contested or automatic] or the MPh process or they maintained possession of it throughout the scenario, then the A21.22 penalties do not apply to them (although the A21.1 penalties could), and
--if Germans are manning an American tank or Americans are manning a German tank (which can only happen via the CCPh method), then the A21.22 penalties do apply to them.
I like this understanding as it avoids any hysteresis regarding how an abandoned vehicle was re-crewed.

I can see, though, where you get your interpretation from based on the wording of A21.2:
Otherwise, an Abandoned AFV can be captured only by a CC attack capture attempt in a CC Location—even though it is Abandoned. Both sides could attempt to capture it and therefore the Infantry of both sides in that location would qualify as a “Personnel Escort” for the Abandoned AFV’s defense until it is controlled by one side or the other.
But I wonder, in light of Perry's response, if the "to capture" phrase is being used a little less formally in this fourth sentence, that right here it means "grab contested possession of" rather than "requiring the use of the A21.22 penalties".

----------------------

Note also A9.72:
9.72 SW/GUN REPAIR: Any Good Order unit may attempt to repair as many of its malfunctioned SW during any RPh as it can fire in one phase, by making a dr (Δ) for each. If the Repair dr is ≤ the Repair Number listed on the back of the counter (in the form “R#”), the SW/Gun is repaired. A dr of 6 eliminates the SW/Gun; any other dr results in no change during that Player Turn. A captured SW/Gun may never be repaired unless recaptured by its original side. Only a crew (not a Temporary Crew) can attempt to repair a Gun, and not while hooked up.
So maybe the meaning of "capture" in A21.2 includes the idea of both "capture" and "recapture", while A21.22 is restricted to captures that are not "recaptures".
 
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