CC DRM Question (CX/Broken)

Livy

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Cross-posted from BGG ASLSK#1 Rules Forum
https://boardgamegeek.com/user/Livy
Given the following melee:

U.S. (Attacker) --

2x 7-4-7 (each CX)
9-2 and 8-1 Leaders (neither CX)

German (Defender) --

2-3-8
4-3-6
4-4-7 (Broken/DM)
2x 9-1 Leaders

No Ambush (stone bldng, BUT U.S. reinforcing the 9-2 already in melee)

If computed as a single CC attack, 1:1 odds (16:12) for Attacker.

Assuming I've properly calculated the preliminaries, I'm a little confused on the DRMs.

The U.S. can use the 9-2 Leadership modifier, but does the +1 for EACH CX 7-4-7 cumulatively negate that, or is the proper read that the presence of any ONE CX unit, regardless of how many, ONLY adds +1 to the attack made up of a combination of CX and non-CX units? (3.3 states in part "CX units must add one to any attack DR or any dr (maximum +1) they make or direct including IFT and CC attacks . . . ."; but the chart seems to suggest a +1/-1 per CX unit).

Second, does the presence of the Broken/DM MMC (which, btw, broke in the current turn's U.S. Prep Fire (the 9-2 having survived the "friendly fire")) cause the -2 DRM to apply to the entire defending stack? (Again, I think that the answer is "yes, it does").

So, on the CC resolution, I played it as a net -2 DRM (-2 Ldr, +2 each CX, -2 Broken MMC). That said, I can also see a viable argument made that it's a net -3 DRM (-2 Ldr, +1 CX (max), -2 Broken MMC).

Which is right? Thanks in advance.
 

Michael R

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The U.S. can use the 9-2 Leadership modifier, but does the +1 for EACH CX 7-4-7 cumulatively negate that, or is the proper read that the presence of any ONE CX unit, regardless of how many, ONLY adds +1 to the attack made up of a combination of CX and non-CX units? (3.3 states in part "CX units must add one to any attack DR or any dr (maximum +1) they make or direct including IFT and CC attacks . . . ."; but the chart seems to suggest a +1/-1 per CX unit).
If any of the attacking units is CX, there is a +1 to their attack. The number of CX attackers does not matter. Therefore the Americans have a net DRM of -1, disregarding the defending units.
 

Michael R

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So, on the CC resolution, I played it as a net -2 DRM (-2 Ldr, +2 each CX, -2 Broken MMC). That said, I can also see a viable argument made that it's a net -3 DRM (-2 Ldr, +1 CX (max), -2 Broken MMC).
The defending broken unit must attempt withdrawal from melee. It cannot defend with the other units, I believe. Therefore, the American attack is 16 to 8, or 2 to 1 with a net -1 DRM unless it chooses to specifically attack the withdrawing unit. If an American unit attacks the withdrawing broken German, that attack will receive (in addition to any other DRM) -2 for the broken unit and -2 for withdrawing and +2 for the two German MMC staying behind to "cover" the withdrawal.
 

Perry

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No withdrawal in SK. Otherwise on the mark.

The attacking Germans will have a -1 vs everyone and and an additional -1 vs the CX units.
 

Livy

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Thanks, folks, this is all really helpful. I should have specified that this came up under the SK rules.

It's clear that the same Attacker's DR applies to all Defenders in the CC. To the extent that a Defender is Broken, in determining the CC result for that Defender (only), a -2 DRM is applied. Because we're talking SK, no withdrawal. Other non-Broken/non-CX Defenders in the CC do not suffer the penalty. Clear as day.

A little less clear is the impact of 2 CX units in the CC. As quoted above, Sec. 3.3 of SK rules provides that "CX units must add one to any attack DR or any dr (maximum +1) they make or direct including IFT and CC attacks, and recovery, ambush and smoke grenade checks." Thinking on this more the parenthetical strikes me as applying ONLY to drs, and not to DRs, otherwise the parenthetical should appear after "DR" as well (or say instead "in either case, maximum +1"). Unlike CC and IFT, SW recovery and smoke attempts can only be conducted by a single unit. With respect to Ambush, Sec. 3.8 makes clear that "Ambush dr are subject to drm even if only a portion of the player's CC force is qualified to use it; drm include +1 for being CX . . . ." Accordingly, EACH CX Unit in a CC suffers the adverse -1/+1 DRM. Otherwise, the result would be in a sense "free" FP for any additional CX attacking unit after the first CX unit "paid" the DRM penalty.

Sec. 4.51 of ASLRB2 appears to confirm this read ("CX units must also add one to any CC attack they make, and deduct one from any CC attack make against them.") I say "appears" because with the benefit of hindsight, it might have been better to say something like "Each CX unit must also add one to any CC attack they make (either alone or in a combined CC attack), and deduct one from any CC attack made against it." Like the example of Broken units in CC, the same CC DR is modified differently depending on the status of the Defender -- CX units suffer the -1 individually when defending. Conversely, when attacking the CX status of each CX unit impacts the CC DRM when the Attacker elects to combine the FP of both CX and non-CX units.

So, in my example, the outcome should be for the U.S. as Attacker a -2 Leader DRM, +2 CX DRM (+1 for each CX 7-4-7), and an additional -2 DRM when applying the CC DR to the Broken Defender. As Defender, -1 Leader DRM (not both as per 11.141), and an additional -1 for the result as applied to each CX 7-4-7 (but not to the U.S. leaders).

By way of background, this particular CC happened in the final phase of the final turn of a CC in the final objective hex. The Attacker rolled a 5, eliminating the Broken defender, and Casualty Reducing at least one of the four remaining units. My opponent and I spent probably as much time analyzing this particular question as we did actually playing the prior 4.5 turns.

ASL is a very jealous mistress.
 

Eagle4ty

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Thanks, folks, this is all really helpful. I should have specified that this came up under the SK rules.

It's clear that the same Attacker's DR applies to all Defenders in the CC. To the extent that a Defender is Broken, in determining the CC result for that Defender (only), a -2 DRM is applied. Because we're talking SK, no withdrawal. Other non-Broken/non-CX Defenders in the CC do not suffer the penalty. Clear as day.

A little less clear is the impact of 2 CX units in the CC. As quoted above, Sec. 3.3 of SK rules provides that "CX units must add one to any attack DR or any dr (maximum +1) they make or direct including IFT and CC attacks, and recovery, ambush and smoke grenade checks." Thinking on this more the parenthetical strikes me as applying ONLY to drs, and not to DRs, otherwise the parenthetical should appear after "DR" as well (or say instead "in either case, maximum +1"). Unlike CC and IFT, SW recovery and smoke attempts can only be conducted by a single unit. With respect to Ambush, Sec. 3.8 makes clear that "Ambush dr are subject to drm even if only a portion of the player's CC force is qualified to use it; drm include +1 for being CX . . . ." Accordingly, EACH CX Unit in a CC suffers the adverse -1/+1 DRM. Otherwise, the result would be in a sense "free" FP for any additional CX attacking unit after the first CX unit "paid" the DRM penalty.

Sec. 4.51 of ASLRB2 appears to confirm this read ("CX units must also add one to any CC attack they make, and deduct one from any CC attack make against them.") I say "appears" because with the benefit of hindsight, it might have been better to say something like "Each CX unit must also add one to any CC attack they make (either alone or in a combined CC attack), and deduct one from any CC attack made against it." Like the example of Broken units in CC, the same CC DR is modified differently depending on the status of the Defender -- CX units suffer the -1 individually when defending. Conversely, when attacking the CX status of each CX unit impacts the CC DRM when the Attacker elects to combine the FP of both CX and non-CX units.

So, in my example, the outcome should be for the U.S. as Attacker a -2 Leader DRM, +2 CX DRM (+1 for each CX 7-4-7), and an additional -2 DRM when applying the CC DR to the Broken Defender. As Defender, -1 Leader DRM (not both as per 11.141), and an additional -1 for the result as applied to each CX 7-4-7 (but not to the U.S. leaders).

By way of background, this particular CC happened in the final phase of the final turn of a CC in the final objective hex. The Attacker rolled a 5, eliminating the Broken defender, and Casualty Reducing at least one of the four remaining units. My opponent and I spent probably as much time analyzing this particular question as we did actually playing the prior 4.5 turns.

ASL is a very jealous mistress.
The areas highlighted in red are incorrect. If your combined stack is conducting a CC attack and only one unit is CX you would pay a penalty of +1 on your CC attack. If Two units in the combined CC stack were conducting a CC attack you would still only pay a +1 penalty to your CC attack (the worst possible modifier of the stack but not a cumulative modifier for each CX unit involved), however if the opponent was to attack your combined stack as a single CC attack only the units currently marked CX would suffer the additional penalty of a -1 CC DRM against it.
 

Livy

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Thanks very much for the response.
 

Stewart

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CX is applied identically as a normal fire attack.
+1
Leadership applied normally
-2
If any part of your attack includes the broken unit the -2 applies ONLY to the broken unit.

Therefore, against non broken units the CCDR is a -1. Vs the broken unit you use the same roll against the same CCKillDR but include the-2 DRM be the broken unit only.
Ex. You need a 5 for CR.
You roll a 8.
Ne vs the non broken units
Broken unit is CR.
If you rolled a 6
One of the unbroken units is CR
AND the broken unit is killed.
If you roll a 5 all die
-1 vs non broken. -3 vs broken
 
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