CC and the Exact Number to Kill.

Tim Niesen

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I made several errors as umpire today, both of which were in Close Combat resolutions.
A. First there is no crew survival for a dead tank in Close Combat. At least that is what I remembered after the fact. I am not sure but if the Stuart tank had been immobilized instead of destroyed, would the crew, if it had failed its morale check, have bailed out into Close Combat with the attacking enemy infantry unit? Would it have gone into Melle? Or straight into Close Combat? I think the former.
B. A Soviet SMG 227 half squad was in Close Combat with a Rumanian 7-0 and a 247. The Soviet 1 to 2 attack yielded a 4 result, which is the exact number to kill. I think that instead of killing both units, I should have called for a tie die between the leader and the 247 half squad. If the leader had lost the tie die and been selected, would he be wounded and a wound severity check be done? I think that yes to the tie die roll and the would severity check.
Tim
 

jrv

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I made several errors as umpire today, both of which were in Close Combat resolutions.
A. First there is no crew survival for a dead tank in Close Combat. At least that is what I remembered after the fact. I am not sure but if the Stuart tank had been immobilized instead of destroyed, would the crew, if it had failed its morale check, have bailed out into Close Combat with the attacking enemy infantry unit? Would it have gone into Melle? Or straight into Close Combat? I think the former.
B. A Soviet SMG 227 half squad was in Close Combat with a Rumanian 7-0 and a 247. The Soviet 1 to 2 attack yielded a 4 result, which is the exact number to kill. I think that instead of killing both units, I should have called for a tie die between the leader and the 247 half squad. If the leader had lost the tie die and been selected, would he be wounded and a wound severity check be done? I think that yes to the tie die roll and the would severity check.
There is no crew survival from elimination in CC [D5.6]. A vehicle only takes a Immobilization TC if it is Immobilized by a non-CC attack [D5.5]. Per a Q&A if there is a Melee and the crew had to bail out (e.g. because it was immobilized by a non-CC attack), it would immediately enter Melee even if the vehicle was the only friendly unit causing the Melee (the vehicle itself is not held in Melee but it can hold enemy infantry in Melee).

Rolling exactly equals to the to kill number results in a CR against a randomly selected defender or defenders [A11.11]. One or both units could be affected per the random selection rules.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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Okay, Thanks. The errors can be fixed. And the rule about the CC Immobilization of a tank not causing a bail out of its crew is worth remembering for the future. Was I correct about the wounding of the 7-0 leader if it is selected by a tie die system? Or does the 7-0 automatically die as a result of the exact Close Combat roll of a 4 on the 1 to 2 attack? Tim
 

buser333

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Okay, Thanks. The errors can be fixed. And the rule about the CC Immobilization of a tank not causing a bail out of its crew is worth remembering for the future. Was I correct about the wounding of the 7-0 leader if it is selected by a tie die system? Or does the 7-0 automatically die as a result of the exact Close Combat roll of a 4 on the 1 to 2 attack? Tim
Yes, wound.
 

jrv

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Okay, Thanks. The errors can be fixed. And the rule about the CC Immobilization of a tank not causing a bail out of its crew is worth remembering for the future. Was I correct about the wounding of the 7-0 leader if it is selected by a tie die system? Or does the 7-0 automatically die as a result of the exact Close Combat roll of a 4 on the 1 to 2 attack? Tim
The result is a casualty reduction, and it is applied per A7.302. Depending on the details the result may eliminated the SMC or the result may wound the SMC.

JR
 

Mr Incredible

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A double whammy in CC is that a leader with higher moral will cause a LLMC on other units in the location.
 

Tim Niesen

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Wow. Never thought of LLMC in CC. Makes perfect sense, however. Tim
 

volgaG68

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A double whammy in CC is that a leader with higher moral will cause a LLMC on other units in the location.
A10.2 Units in CC do not cause/take LLMC.

I think they might if they are in a Melee and fired on from the outside (not 100% sure), but not if simply engaging in CC mechanics.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think (but could be corrected) as long as they are marked "Melee" they are engaging in CC and so the LLMC is NA. They are "locked in Melee" A11.15 line 3.
A11.141:
"...Units in CC never take LLMC/LLTC."

There is an unofficial Q&A that says units "in CC" are not immune to LLMC if the fire comes from outside the hex.

A11.141 Are units locked in MELEE/under a CC Counter considered 'in CC' and subject to
LLMC/LLTC immunity (A11.141) for fire coming from outside their location during any fire
phase?
A. No, they are not immune. [Letter151]

151) Andrew Millar to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 10 February 2002


Personally I don't particularly agree with this Q&A. Why would the soliders not care when their sergeant is cut down by the close-up enemy 5-20 meters away, but suddenly care if someone from 100 meters away shoots him? :)
 

Justiciar

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A11.141:
"...Units in CC never take LLMC/LLTC."

There is an unofficial Q&A that says units "in CC" are not immune to LLMC if the fire comes from outside the hex.

A11.141 Are units locked in MELEE/under a CC Counter considered 'in CC' and subject to
LLMC/LLTC immunity (A11.141) for fire coming from outside their location during any fire
phase?
A. No, they are not immune. [Letter151]

151) Andrew Millar to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 10 February 2002


Personally I don't particularly agree with this Q&A. Why would the soliders not care when their sergeant is cut down by the close-up enemy 5-20 meters away, but suddenly care if someone from 100 meters away shoots him? :)
I agree with your point of view.
Seems like somebody failed to understand what "locked in Melee" really means.
So as this was "unofficial" if the question was asked again for an 'official' viewpoint, would the answer change do you think?
 

von Marwitz

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A11.141:
"...Units in CC never take LLMC/LLTC."

There is an unofficial Q&A that says units "in CC" are not immune to LLMC if the fire comes from outside the hex.

A11.141 Are units locked in MELEE/under a CC Counter considered 'in CC' and subject to
LLMC/LLTC immunity (A11.141) for fire coming from outside their location during any fire
phase?
A. No, they are not immune. [Letter151]

151) Andrew Millar to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 10 February 2002


Personally I don't particularly agree with this Q&A. Why would the soliders not care when their sergeant is cut down by the close-up enemy 5-20 meters away, but suddenly care if someone from 100 meters away shoots him? :)
Nice spot! Very pointed distinguation.

von Marwitz
 
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