CC and concealment

[GVL]

A concealed unit advances in a non-openground-hex wherein an enemy concealed unit is.
There is no ambush.
What happens if both concealed units want to stay concealed and don't want to attack during CC-phase?
Do they have to declare this simultanously?
There is no melee, do we have to put a CC-counter on the stack or not? Are these two concealed units supposed to be in CC?

 

[Brian W]

A concealed unit advances in a non-openground-hex wherein an enemy concealed unit is.
There is no ambush.
What happens if both concealed units want to stay concealed and don't want to attack during CC-phase?
Do they have to declare this simultanously?
There is no melee, do we have to put a CC-counter on the stack or not? Are these two concealed units supposed to be in CC?

I do not have the ASOP handy, but I think the attacker declares his attacks (or lack of attacks) first. If neither player attacks, leave the CC marker on (or not, since a CC marker means very litte) until the location becomes melee or one side vacates the location.

 

[GVL]

The question is important because :

none of the two concealed units want to fire next phase , nor does one want to move.

conclusion : At the next advance phase, one concealed unit wants to advance out of the hex.

If there is a CC-marker : he can't ( see A4.7 : "... nor marked with a CC counter...")
If there is no CC-marker : he can.


So, question stays the same : do we have to put a CC-marker at the end of a CC-phase when there is no CC-attack from the two concealed unit in this hex?

 

[Bjoernar]

Hello.

As far as I have understood the rules a CC marker is only used when there has actually been a CC attack in some way, CC-reaction fire etc. The units you mention are free to do what they want, but if they are still in the same location at the start of the next CCPh the Attacker must again declare if he wants to attack or not, then the defender do the same steps.



Bjørnar

 

[Ole Boe]

I agree with Bjørnar. Moreover, the CC counters are color-coded to be removed at the end of the CCPh (when you remove all white counters with red letters) - something that is also explicitely stated in A3.8: "Flip CC counters over to Melee side or remove them."

 

[Brian W]

I agree with Bjørnar. Moreover, the CC counters are color-coded to be removed at the end of the CCPh (when you remove all white counters with red letters) - something that is also explicitely stated in A3.8: "Flip CC counters over to Melee side or remove them."

I thought that one of the Human Wave changes was that units marked CC could not advance, but NASLRBH.

The CC counter is an ill-defined thing otherwise; as far as I can tell, until the Human Wave re-write a CC did not mean anything except a reminder that opposing sides occupied a location.

 

[pward]

I thought that one of the Human Wave changes was that units marked CC could not advance, but NASLRBH.

The CC counter is an ill-defined thing otherwise; as far as I can tell, until the Human Wave re-write a CC did not mean anything except a reminder that opposing sides occupied a location.

NRBH either: I don't doubt that HW are restricted from advancing, since they have achieved their objective of closing with the enemy once they entered the hex and got the CC counter. (Soon to be replaced by dead MMCs or a H-to-H melee counter!) It's a real issue of timing. Looking at the original post, the concealed unit's advance into the same hex initiated the placemnt of the CC counter. Then at the end of the CC phase the counter is removed because nobody attacked. (This may also be removed if one side declines to attack and survives the other players attack, check with the actual rules, not my shoddy memory.) HW units can't retain concealment, and they won't be advancing if they make it into an enemy occupied location anyhow.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

The CC counter is an ill-defined thing otherwise; as far as I can tell, until the Human Wave re-write a CC did not mean anything except a reminder that opposing sides occupied a location.

I've always seen the CC counter more as a mnonic, otherwise you'll loose track of all the close combats & potential melees in larger scenarios. I know I've forgotten, on more than one occasion, to do a CC/melee simply because it wasn't marked the first time around and neither me or my opponent noticed it (too many counters on the map or up too late at night ...). If one side's counters or the other's is stacked on the other side's counters, and there is no CC/Melee couter on top, then it looks just like a normal stack of counters.

So, IMO, I think it is important to place CC counters in any situation in which a unit, during its MPh or APh, ends that phase in an enemy occupied hex (otherwise you might forget) regardless of whether an attack took place or not (most of the time it does though, in my experience due to FPF or Rx fire, OVR prevention .. in most cases the rules force some kind of reaction on the defender's part).

 

[Brian W]

I've always seen the CC counter more as a mnonic,

That was exactly my point. The counter was meaningless until the Human Wave change; it now has some slight meaning, which rarely affects the game.

 

[Ole Boe]

That was exactly my point. The counter was meaningless until the Human Wave change; it now has some slight meaning, which rarely affects the game.

I have never understood the use of the CC counter either. Actuallly I still don't use it - although there has been other one use of it all the way: A unit that has used CC-reaction Fire is marked with a CC counter to denote that it cannot use non-CC reaction Fire later that MPh.

As for the HW change - I don't have the old rules with me, but I don't think the HW unit advance thingie was a change.

Anyway, the important part of the HW rule is not the CC counter, but that a HW unit cannot advance out of an enemy-occupied Location.
This is true in all other situations as well:
A unit cannot advance out of any enemy-occupied Location - if it entered that Location this Player Turn. The CC counter is a reminder that it happened this player turn - thus preventing Advance, but that is something you normally remember even without the CC counter, so I don't use it with HW units or other similar situations.

 

[Jim McLeod]

I have never understood the use of the CC counter either. Actuallly I still don't use it

Are you sure about the CC counter placement Ole?

I was always under the impression that given the example earlier, the "?" units of both sides would have the CC counter on top of them going into the next PT. They can fire at each other as is allowed but there should be a CC counter on them going into the next PT.

I must look this rule up, I am tournamenting this weekend.




=Jim=

 

[Ole Boe]

Are you sure about the CC counter placement Ole?

No.
If it is one thing I've never been sure about in the rules, it's the use of CC counters. I general let them attract dust in its box.

I was always under the impression that given the example earlier, the "?" units of both sides would have the CC counter on top of them going into the next PT. They can fire at each other as is allowed but there should be a CC counter on them going into the next PT.

A3.8 only gives to options at the end of the CC phase: Flip the CC counter to its Melee side, or remove it. Keeping it on the CC side is not an option.

The question is if/when it is put back. AFAIK there is no rule telling us to do so. All the rules dealing with placement of CC counters tell us to place it when something specific happens (normally the entrance of one unit into an enemy unit's Location), but none of them tell us to keep/place it just because two non-Melee units remain in the same Location.

I really wish the ASLRB had a general rule of placing a CC counter whenever two enemy units shared the same Location - instead of scattering this in 10s of different rules. But I don't know of any such rule.

I'm sans ASOP, but I seriously doubt the ASOP says anything about placing a CC counter at the start of a Player Turn. It may say something different than A3.8 about keeping the CC counter, but I doubt it.

So it even looks to me as those two units can fire at each other (and thereby loos concealment) without the placement of a CC counter - allowing the ATTACKER to advance. :hmmm:

 

[Jim McLeod]

No. If it is one thing I've never been sure about in the rules, it's the use of CC counters. I general let them attract dust in its box.

Ole, ASOP step 8.31B is quite clear, CC counters as flipped/removed and Melee counters are retained/remove as appropriate.

So there it is.

Having said that, there may well be a rule stating that whenever opposing sides find themselves in the same Location, a CC counter is placed. Meaning, we have a dog chasing its tail situation.

Kind of like placing a 1stFire counter on a S. that has fired a PF but is then CR'd to a HS. Can the HS fire another PF?



Personally, I believe it can based on what the rules say.






=Jim=

 

[Ole Boe]

Having said that, there may well be a rule stating that whenever opposing sides find themselves in the same Location, a CC counter is placed. Meaning, we have a dog chasing its tail situation.

I'm quite sure there isn't. My eASLRB has search capabilities, and every instance of "CC counter" it found, dealt with specific situations that requires placement, none of them was as general statement as the above.

Kind of like placing a 1stFire counter on a S. that has fired a PF but is then CR'd to a HS. Can the HS fire another PF?

Thanks. I needed that one :clown:

 

[Jim McLeod]

Thanks. I needed that one :clown:

I did not intend my reply to be in jest Ole. Your argument makes sense. The 1st Fire counter is not placed until the S has fired 2 PFs. If it has fired only 1 PF, the S is not marked as 1st Fired and if the S is subsequebtly CR'd the quasi 1st Fire counter is on the nonexistent PF SW counter not on the HS, soooo, the HS should still be able to fire since it is not marked as 1st Fired.

Something like that.

I never did like the presentation of A7.35 etc.



=Jim=