CC, Ambush, Concealment, broken unit

[WuWei]

Just checking if we played this right.

Somewhere in Stalingrad:
A concealed, stealthy Russian 447 advanced into a Factory hex with a concealed German 8-1 and a (unconcealed) broken 547.
There's an Ambush roll. The Russians get -2 (concealment) and -1 (stealthy) so -3. The Germans get -1 (leader bonus), -2 (concealment) and +1 (broken unit), for a total of -2.
Hypothetical: If the Germans got Ambush, the 8-1 and/or the broken 547 could move out of the hex into an accessible location.

Reality: There's no Ambush. The Germans decline to attack, so the 8-1 stays concealed. The Russian attack is halved, so it's 2:6 -> 1:4, but they get -2 vs. broken unit. They declare H-to-H, for a Kill# of 5. They rolled an 11 for no effect.
Hypothetical:
A rolled 4 or lower would have eliminated both German units.
A rolled 5 would have CRed the squad or wounded the leader, random selection.
A rolled 6 would have eliminated the broken squad.
A rolled 7 would have CRed the broken squad.

Is that correct?

 

[Vinnie]

Looks right but I'm not certain the Broken unit coukd have withdrawn if they won the ambush. Also not certain the leader can defend with a broken unit.

 

[Vinnie]

Ok, he can defend with the brokies but must lose his concealment if he does so.

SMC defends in CC as part of the group it attacks with by adding its inherent FP to the FP of the MMC stacked beneath it [EXC: A Known SMC may never defend with a concealed unit unless that unit forfeits its concealment so as to defend with the Known SMC, or vice versa]

 

[EagleIV]

Actually a 5 would both kill the squad and wound the the leader since the final DR would be 3 vs the squad (KIA) and 5 vs the leader (only) for a CR. There is no RS in this case.

Also the Russians could attack either unit alone since the leader is not attacking it can't defend with anyone. Also since the broken unit can't attack the leader can't defend with it.

The broken unit could withdraw if it had ambushed the Russians (and it isn't disrupted). The leader could also withdraw to the same or another location.

 

[jrv]

I don't believe the intention is that if a SMC is not attacking for some reason, it then can't defend with a MMC. If that were true and both a SMC and MMC decline to attack to maintain concealment, the SMC could be attacked alone. That doesn't seem right. The rules also mention a SMC defending with a MMC when when both are attempting to withdraw [A11.14], and if the units are attempting to withdraw they are not attacking. Per that same rule, unless a SMC attacks alone, is in a different concealment state than the MMC or withdraws alone, "the smallest increment which can be the subject of a single CC attack is a single MMC (plus any SMC stacked directly above it)."

JR

 

[Vinnie]

To quote the next sentence. "A CC attack cannot single out one or more SMC to attack unless the SMC(s) attack(s) without an MMC, or they are attempting to withdraw (or conversely, to stand) without an accompanying MMC"
It the SMC attacks alone, withdraws alone or does not withdraw when the MMC withdraws, he can be singled out. If both just sit there, you have to target both.

 

[Larry]

I would have guessed that leaders could not use their DRM if the only other unit was broken. A review of the rules does not support that assumption. Interesting.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I would have guessed that leaders could not use their DRM if the only other unit was broken. A review of the rules does not support that assumption. Interesting.

In actual CC he couldn't, as the broken unit can't attack, and that's were the leaders' DRM come in.

 

[jrv]

I would have guessed that leaders could not use their DRM if the only other unit was broken.

Use the leadership DRM for what? The broken unit can't attack, so if the leader attacks, it attacks (and defends) alone, and since it is attacking (and defending) alone, it can't use its leadership DRM.

JR

 

[WuWei]

Use the leadership DRM for what?

For the Ambush roll. My opponent challenged that, too, but my arguments were convincing.

 

[jrv]

For the Ambush roll. My opponent challenged that, too, but my arguments were convincing.

Ok, then agree. It wasn't clear that ambush drm were an issue.

JR

 

[Larry]

Use the leadership DRM for what? The broken unit can't attack, so if the leader attacks, it attacks (and defends) alone, and since it is attacking (and defending) alone, it can't use its leadership DRM.

JR

ambush as WuWei surmised. Leader modifying the non-morale function of a broken unit seems ... odd.

 

[jrv]

ambush as WuWei surmised. Leader modifying the non-morale function of a broken unit seems ... odd.

When there are multiple units involved in a DR or dr you usually combine DRM/drm even if one DRM/drm makes no sense for the group. For example again in ambush a heroic leader and a berserk beserk would have both stealthy and lax drm applied. It is perhaps a little more odd for the leadership drm because the presence of the other (broken) unit allows the leadership drm to be applied, but it's not a giant step.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

When there are multiple units involved in a DR or dr you usually combine DRM/drm even if one DRM/drm makes no sense for the group. For example again in ambush a heroic leader and a berserk beserk would have both stealthy and lax drm applied. It is perhaps a little more odd for the leadership drm because the presence of the other (broken) unit allows the leadership drm to be applied, but it's not a giant step.

JR

And Berserk drm as well for Ambush.

drm	CAUSE
+2	Cavalry, Vehicle, or in Pillbox
+2	Above Bank counter
+1	Above Panji counter
+1	BU or Stunned AFV (each)
+1	CX, Lax, broken, pinned, or berserk (each)
+1	ATTACKER in Jungle, Kunai, Bamboo
-1	Stealthy
-2	Concealed
+x	Leadership modifier of best unpinned Good Order leader unless alone (10.7) or if any of the force is berserk