Caves question

[chris_olden]

Gents, are cave complexes given to the Japanese player by SSR, or do they get cave complexes
automatically if cave counters are given in the OB as fortifications?
:smoke:

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Gents, are cave complexes given to the Japanese player by SSR, or do they get cave complexes
automatically if cave counters are given in the OB as fortifications?
:smoke:

G11.2:
"...Up to 25% (FRD) of the original number (see 11.91) of Cave counters in the Japanese OB may be considered Primary Cave counters. Each Primary Cave counter has an associated Cave Complex that abstractly represents a series of underground passageways extending from the cave’s Location, thus enabling Japanese Infantry to move unseen from one point to another...."

No SSR needed. See also G11.91.

 

[chris_olden]

Thanks Klas!
I was double checking to make sure I hadn't
missed something.

 

[Honza]

What are you working on Chris? Okinawa?

 

[chris_olden]

What are you working on Chris? Okinawa?

Yes, and no!
The Okinawa scenario is still simmering. I know people don't dig "bug hunts", so it's uh, "gestation", is taking
much longer than I'd like. Feh.
The "other" scenario feels like it'll come together much quicker.

 

[Honza]

I know SOME people don't dig "bug hunts", so it's uh, "gestation", is taking
much longer than I'd like. Feh.

Fixed that for you.....

 

[chris_olden]

Fixed that for you.....

Thanks!!!!
:laugh:

 

[sunoftzu]

I know people don't dig "bug hunts".........

I see this comment (or possibly pathetic excuse) a lot, and would like to take this opportunity to blow the lid off it.

Let's take a quick look at some of the official scenarios featuring caves (something I suspect few of the 'Bug-hunt' haters have taken the time to do):

In scenarios 72 ("Sea of Tranquility"), 74 ("Bloody Red Beach"), 149 ("Grabbing Gavutu"), 150 ("Tanambogo Nightmare"), 151 ("Take Two"), A 67 ("Monte Castello"), J 13 ("The Gorge"), J 14 ("On The Hoss' Side"), J 16 ("Kakazu's Tombs"), J 17 ("Clearing Kakazu"), J 18 ("The Pinnacle"), and J 64 ("American Tragedy") the VCs all involve control of hexes/pillboxes/buildings.

Only J 15 ("Turning Off The Spigot") actually requires the finding and controlling of any caves, which shouldn't be particularly hard, since SSRs require them to set up within 3 hexes of W15.

"........awwwww, I hate bug hunt scenarios." Yeah, well apparently the same people making these kind of comments don't seem to have too much fondness of reading the VCs properly, either.

Caves are a supreme place to hide, but they don't do much for denying control if all you're going to do is sit tight and not fire.

For those who insist on referring to cave scenarios as bug hunts, I must warn you that before too long a few people might start to gain the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Might be time to take a fresh look, eh ?

John.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Agreed. The "bug hunt" part probably comes from finding caves hidden in jungle/kunai/bamboo. In OG caves pop into view as soon as you have a LOS (except at night) so are a lot easier to find.

But, yeah, most VCs don't require caves to be sealed up, unless you have an ample supply of DCs.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

After a thousand rounds of seaborne assaults, we do caves next yeah?

I see this comment (or possibly pathetic excuse) a lot, and would like to take this opportunity to blow the lid off it.

Let's take a quick look at some of the official scenarios featuring caves (something I suspect few of the 'Bug-hunt' haters have taken the time to do):

In scenarios 72 ("Sea of Tranquility"), 74 ("Bloody Red Beach"), 149 ("Grabbing Gavutu"), 150 ("Tanambogo Nightmare"), 151 ("Take Two"), A 67 ("Monte Castello"), J 13 ("The Gorge"), J 14 ("On The Hoss' Side"), J 16 ("Kakazu's Tombs"), J 17 ("Clearing Kakazu"), J 18 ("The Pinnacle"), and J 64 ("American Tragedy") the VCs all involve control of hexes/pillboxes/buildings.

Only J 15 ("Turning Off The Spigot") actually requires the finding and controlling of any caves, which shouldn't be particularly hard, since SSRs require them to set up within 3 hexes of W15.

"........awwwww, I hate bug hunt scenarios." Yeah, well apparently the same people making these kind of comments don't seem to have too much fondness of reading the VCs properly, either.

Caves are a supreme place to hide, but they don't do much for denying control if all you're going to do is sit tight and not fire.

For those who insist on referring to cave scenarios as bug hunts, I must warn you that before too long a few people might start to gain the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Might be time to take a fresh look, eh ?

John.

 

[witchbottles]

I see this comment (or possibly pathetic excuse) a lot, and would like to take this opportunity to blow the lid off it.

Let's take a quick look at some of the official scenarios featuring caves (something I suspect few of the 'Bug-hunt' haters have taken the time to do):

In scenarios 72 ("Sea of Tranquility"), 74 ("Bloody Red Beach"), 149 ("Grabbing Gavutu"), 150 ("Tanambogo Nightmare"), 151 ("Take Two"), A 67 ("Monte Castello"), J 13 ("The Gorge"), J 14 ("On The Hoss' Side"), J 16 ("Kakazu's Tombs"), J 17 ("Clearing Kakazu"), J 18 ("The Pinnacle"), and J 64 ("American Tragedy") the VCs all involve control of hexes/pillboxes/buildings.

Only J 15 ("Turning Off The Spigot") actually requires the finding and controlling of any caves, which shouldn't be particularly hard, since SSRs require them to set up within 3 hexes of W15.

"........awwwww, I hate bug hunt scenarios." Yeah, well apparently the same people making these kind of comments don't seem to have too much fondness of reading the VCs properly, either.

Caves are a supreme place to hide, but they don't do much for denying control if all you're going to do is sit tight and not fire.

For those who insist on referring to cave scenarios as bug hunts, I must warn you that before too long a few people might start to gain the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Might be time to take a fresh look, eh ?

John.

the term " bug hunt" wasn't coined for scens involving caves or control of caves. ( I made a similar misconception a long time ago.)

It refers to the scenarios allowing / with lots of japanese HIP capability, lots of terrain allowing HIP that is close ( i.e. within one MPh) of a specific location required in the VCs to be controlled by the non - japanese player to win.

as you note, scenarios of this sort are not common.

but a bug hunt exists in single 1/2 board tourney scens set in the jungle as well, One log Bridge comes immediately to mind as the penultimate example of a small "bug hunt". a single MMC HIP until the last MPh of the game can win it for the japanese.

and so on.

It is more common in the CG victory conditions, BR:T is likely the best example. A single controlled pillbox / bunker is a win for the japanese. ( using it as an example)

I have nothing against either One Log Bridge or BRT, I am simply identifyng the concept of " bug hunt".

In any case, the "solution" as a designer is impossibly easy. end the game at a 1/2 turn , i.e. 7.6 turns, or 6.5 turns, or 5.5 turns, etc.

The HIP hidey guy has no capability of waltzing out in the last MPh to take control of a VC location if he has no last MPh.

but bug hunts are definitely NOT restricted to caves.

KRL, Jon H

 

[sunoftzu]

but bug hunts are definitely NOT restricted to caves.

KRL, Jon H

Thanks Jon H,

I think you made an excellent case of bug hunts not being restricted to caves.

(I did happen to know this already, but your points were well made nonetheless)

I was similarly hoping to illustrate that scenarios involving caves are definitely not restricted to bug hunts (same disassociation, but the other way around), if indeed ever.

John.

 

[sunoftzu]

After a thousand rounds of seaborne assaults, we do caves next yeah?

Just say when........

John.

 

[von Marwitz]

I agree to Jon. Bug hunt is a more general term and it is mostly referred to if it allows the Japanese to dogde around the main VC by just keeping that one HIP HS out there somewhere.

But on Okinawa or Iwo Jima, it was the objective to clear the area and make it safe. So here, the bug hunt has a more historical background and as such I do not see much of a problem making it part of a scenario or CG in this context.

von Marwitz