Casualties Bin

hongkongwargamer

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ITEM #1::

Last night I started a 6.4.4 game VSAV with 6.4.5 CASBIN and went online (VASL room). My opponent, using 6.4.4, can only see the mapboard and no counters.

We then did the opposite. He called up the VSAV via 6.4.4. I sync'd with 6.4.5 CASBIN .. I can see everything.

This is independently reported by @A_T_Great although he was doing PBEM. (Async, non VASL room)

ITEM #2::

Continuing on with my opponent having called up the VSAV with me on 6.4.5 CASBIN. He can't see me moving counters.
 

DougRim

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ITEM #1::

Last night I started a 6.4.4 game VSAV with 6.4.5 CASBIN and went online (VASL room). My opponent, using 6.4.4, can only see the mapboard and no counters.

We then did the opposite. He called up the VSAV via 6.4.4. I sync'd with 6.4.5 CASBIN .. I can see everything.

This is independently reported by @A_T_Great although he was doing PBEM. (Async, non VASL room)

ITEM #2::

Continuing on with my opponent having called up the VSAV with me on 6.4.5 CASBIN. He can't see me moving counters.
Exactly as I would expect it to be (should have made this clearer in my post about the beta test module). VASL6.4.5-casbin includes changes to virtually every counter so I am not surprised that someone using 6.4.4 would not see units opened by 6.4.5. However, someone using 6.4.5-casbin probably would see units in a game started in 6.4.4.

But thanks for confirming. Will have to make sure that players are so advised when 6.4.5 is officially launched.

Properly testing vasl6.4.5-casbin will require both players to be using it.

There will be a way to apply the casbin functionality to games started in 6.4.4 or earlier but it will be a little click-intensive.
 
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ditto using different versions will cause all sorts of problems, usually no map or no counters..
 

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Progress is being made. I see comments about the need to predetermine the CVP for units such as leaders, hs, and individual vehicles. I think I have found a way to do that for personnel units that will not force me to spend the rest of my life working on this.

I also think I have an idea for AFV. What about if I set the cvp for each vehicle type as the maximum for that vehicle and then provide menu options for reducing the CVP? It would take 3: MA Disabled (-1); Crew Survives (-2); MA Disabled and Crew Survives (-3). Selecting one of those options would reset the CVP accordingly. I don’t think that there are any other ASL conditions that change vehicular CVP?
 

hongkongwargamer

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Progress is being made. I see comments about the need to predetermine the CVP for units such as leaders, hs, and individual vehicles. I think I have found a way to do that for personnel units that will not force me to spend the rest of my life working on this.

I also think I have an idea for AFV. What about if I set the cvp for each vehicle type as the maximum for that vehicle and then provide menu options for reducing the CVP? It would take 3: MA Disabled (-1); Crew Survives (-2); MA Disabled and Crew Survives (-3). Selecting one of those options would reset the CVP accordingly. I don’t think that there are any other ASL conditions that change vehicular CVP?
DTO. [F.3]
 

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VASL6.4.5-casbin includes changes to virtually every counter
While I'm here, I wanted to ask about this. When I read this, I wanted to scream, since it seemed to mean big changes would be needed for vasl-templates. But I checked this new release against vasl-templates a while back and everything seemed to be OK. I did a diff of the build file against the current version, and the changes were minimal, so I guess your changes were made somewhere else. Are they something I need to worry about? The only thing I care about is the mapping of GPID's to vehicles/ordnance, and extracting their images. Given that the build file doesn't seem to have changed much, I'm guessing that I'm OK...?
 

von Marwitz

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VASL6.4.5-casbin includes changes to virtually every counter
Hm. Will that entail that almost any counter that came as part of an extension will be obsolete? That counters for all existing setup files needed to be "redone" by pulling new counters (as the automatic exchange has always been difficult with all counters using their names/labels at best).

von Marwitz
 

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DTO. [F.3]
Yes, good one. I think a "Use DVP" submenu should handle it. Initially, I may have this pull up a dialog box where users would enter the DVP for said vehicle. Otherwise I would have to add both a CVP and DVP value to each vehicle counter. More work than I think necessary for version 1 of a Casualties Bin (and certainly more work than I can find time for).
 

DougRim

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While I'm here, I wanted to ask about this. When I read this, I wanted to scream, since it seemed to mean big changes would be needed for vasl-templates. But I checked this new release against vasl-templates a while back and everything seemed to be OK. I did a diff of the build file against the current version, and the changes were minimal, so I guess your changes were made somewhere else. Are they something I need to worry about? The only thing I care about is the mapping of GPID's to vehicles/ordnance, and extracting their images. Given that the build file doesn't seem to have changed much, I'm guessing that I'm OK...?
This is certainly worth thinking through and testing very carefully. In the version of the module that I posted above, the counter changes were made at the prototype level (prototypes are used to generate base versions of counters with shared features. Several prototypes can be added together and then unit-specific features added in a final layer). As a result these would probably not show up in the build file. What should have shown as a big difference in the build file is the new map window (and associated items) that comprises the actual casualties bin.

I don't believe that any of the changes that I made to the prototypes would change the GPID of any counter in the system. Nor would any image files have been changed. But you should continue to test this, especially in the next version of the casualties bin. In that version, I will be changing each individual infantry, gun and vehicle counter (groan) to add a specific CVP value to them. Again, I see no reason to think that this will imact GPIDs or Images but we will have to test it.
 

DougRim

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Hm. Will that entail that almost any counter that came as part of an extension will be obsolete? That counters for all existing setup files needed to be "redone" by pulling new counters (as the automatic exchange has always been difficult with all counters using their names/labels at best).

von Marwitz
With respect to the current beta version of the casualties bin, the answer is no, counters won't become obsolete. This is due to the fact that all the changes to the counters are applied at the prototype level and flow through to individual counters regardless of origin. At least that is what seems to be happening on my system. I only have one extension loaded that contains unit counters so I will need to do more testing to be sure about this. This applies to counters added to a game opened in VASL6.4.5-casbin by dragging them from the counter panels. For saved games, see below.

In any event, I am moving to a revised approach in which I have to add a set CVP value to each infantry, gun, plane and vehicle counter in the system. Initially that will apply to those counters in the VASL module. Counters in extensions would also have to be changed. And counters created from now on would have to have the CVP value added at creation. For those familiar with counters, it is very easy to do. Just a matter of adding a Marker trait to each counter and setting the value to its proper CVP. However, it is laborious as hell. And it will make existing, unchanged counters obsolete. Meaning that the counters will work normally except for the casualties bin functionality.

With existing setup files, I am not sure what the answer is as I have not had the time to test. I would appreciate it if someone could do so and let us know the result. I have opened up a few games saved in vasl-6.4.4 and they open fine, all counters visible. The existing counters do not show the casualties bin menu items. New counters added to the map do show the functionality. It appears that the games will play normally but only "new" counters will work with the casualties bin functionality. Do setup files work just like saved games?

We will need to proceed carefully here. It is not my intention to break a lot of work that has gone into setup files, etc. I would appreciate any advice people might have and any experiences they have using existing game files with the beta casbin module.
 

von Marwitz

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Do setup files work just like saved games?
Yes, I would very much think so. A "setup file" by my definition is the following:

Boards, Overalys, Terrain/Weather alterations implemented
SAN, OBA-modules set
All counters needed for the scenario pulled & labelled offboard the playing area.
Some organizational stuff implemented - turn wheel, round track, compass-rose, EC, Draggable Overlays with VC, SSR etc.

It is good to know, that "old" counters are likely to work with VASL v6.4.5 - except for the new feature, of course.

An feature which would be "nice to have" is the following:
A functionality that would automatically exchange all counters of an ongoing game/setup-file (i.e. pre-v6.4.5) with the new v6.4.5 counters - inclusive of counter labels, names, and flags (such as Fanatic/Berserk).

The existing "refresh counters" function is only of very limited use. IIRC, basically, it would serve the purpose of changing older counters with the latest ones. But all names and labels of the counters are lost in the process. And the function only works if no extensions are added to the VASL module I seem to recall. As basically everyone has numerous extensions added to VASL, this means that normally the "refresh counters" function never works - unless one first establishes a VASL version without any extensions.

von Marwitz
 

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Progress is being made. I see comments about the need to predetermine the CVP for units such as leaders, hs, and individual vehicles. I think I have found a way to do that for personnel units that will not force me to spend the rest of my life working on this.

I also think I have an idea for AFV. What about if I set the cvp for each vehicle type as the maximum for that vehicle and then provide menu options for reducing the CVP? It would take 3: MA Disabled (-1); Crew Survives (-2); MA Disabled and Crew Survives (-3). Selecting one of those options would reset the CVP accordingly. I don’t think that there are any other ASL conditions that change vehicular CVP?
I have got the approach for vehicles described in my earlier post working. Now all I need to do is to change every vehicle counter to add an initial CVP value. This is not hard; it is laborious and repetitive. I am happy to do it. However, I would ask for some help if anyone is willing. It would make my work easier if I had a list of what the initial CVP value for each vehicle should be as per A26.212, assuming no cs (so maximum CVP). I can easily calculate these myself but it is just more work and will add to the time it takes me to get this done. So if anyone wishes to help, I would be grateful. I am going to start with the Allied vehicles, so if you are willing to help, it would be best for you to start with the Axis vehicles. Thanks in advance

Everything else (infantry, guns, planes) is done. As soon as i get the vehicle changes done, I can release a full-blown beta version for combat trials.
 

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I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but HS created from full squads also have the default 2CVP as full squads.
 

DougRim

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I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but HS created from full squads also have the default 2CVP as full squads.
Yes, in the current version that is how it works. In the upcoming version, that will be fixed so that HS are 1 CVP. I have all the infantry units, guns, and planes done. I have all of the Allied vehicles done. Will probably take me another month or so to do all of the Axis vehicles. Then I should have a new beta test module to go.

It will have the exact CVP for each individual counter set. For all counters, a completely new CVP can be set (counter by counter) if required by SSR or some other special rules (such as DVP). Plus, for vehicles, it will be possible to reduce the CVP for a malf'd MA or a crew that survives.
 

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I'm far from an experienced player, but isn't CVP calculation the only reason why you want a feature like this? e.g. why would you need to know where a unit died?
Tracking where units died might determine last known Control of something for VC...you KIAed my hs in R2...but I still control R2, something like this...

I agree this feature is not* super needed, but could be nice, assuming that coding same is not a pain.
 

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I have got the approach for vehicles described in my earlier post working. Now all I need to do is to change every vehicle counter to add an initial CVP value. This is not hard; it is laborious and repetitive. I am happy to do it. However, I would ask for some help if anyone is willing. It would make my work easier if I had a list of what the initial CVP value for each vehicle should be as per A26.212, assuming no cs (so maximum CVP). I can easily calculate these myself but it is just more work and will add to the time it takes me to get this done. So if anyone wishes to help, I would be grateful. I am going to start with the Allied vehicles, so if you are willing to help, it would be best for you to start with the Axis vehicles. Thanks in advance

Everything else (infantry, guns, planes) is done. As soon as i get the vehicle changes done, I can release a full-blown beta version for combat trials.
Hello Doug,

I'm willing to take on some of the work in this. Klas Malmstrom has tables for the vehicles which I should be able to format into on Excel file and then grind through the numbers. Unless Klas objects to this approach. Mind you, there will be additions as the tables are likely dated, but it should get the bulk of the "basic" ASL Kit. Probably start with the German vehicles and see how it goes.

Is an Excel sheet a good format for you to provide the calculated DVP and CVP in?

Colin
 
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