Case L and firing on the Start MP

[zgrose]

I think I've learned in an older thread that Case L doesn't apply when firing at an AFV on its Start MP. Am I remembering correctly?

 

[STAVKA]

Yes, Point Blank does not apply.

 

[Robin Reeve]

If it has started, the vehicle is non stopped.
Case L doesn't apply to non stopped vehicles:

Case L is not applicable if using the Area Target Type, firing at a target in the firer's hex (including Aerial targets), and/or the firer is in-Motion/Non-Stopped/Aerial.

Index definition of Non-Stopped:

Non-Stopped (a vehicle, during its MPh, that has not expended a Stop MP since its last Start MP expenditure)

 

[baelfiin]

reading the above it says firer is non stopped/motion but the QRDC lists Case L as non stopped/motion Target as NA
Would it not be case C4 for a motion/nonstopped Firer?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Case L is NA if either/both firer or target is non-stopped/in-Motion.

 

[zgrose]

Thanks for the confirmations.

 

[Mr Incredible]

But Case J doesn't apply yet either, so take the shot quickly.

It can spend a Start MP but still be hit with a nett 0 DRM (assuming no other DRMs) before Case J kicks in.

When you start to look at all the possibilities in the MPh there are different variations on a theme at Point Blank range:

-2 DRM: Prior to spending a Start MP (spending a MP to fire sD, unload, gun duel etc)
0 DRM: After spending a Start MP but prior to Moving or after Moving and then expending a Stop MP
+2 DRM: After Moving and not spending a Stop MP

 

[Pyth]

But Case J doesn't apply yet either, so take the shot quickly.

You have broken my mind. So at the beginning of MPh when a stopped vehicle spends a start MP (and successfully starts) the vehicle is non-stopped and Case L is off, ok but Case J doesn't yet apply. But should the vehicle move to a new location, that start mp that didn't count in Case J calculations now does count. -- Can this be right? The Mp expenditure doesn't count, then it does. Please confirm this is correct. Also if a vehicle starts moves stops starts again... Case J is working all the while after the initial start and so on that second start mp case J is in play, yes?

 

[aneil1234]

when you do defensive fire against a vehicle during its movement phase exists in 1 of 3 states

As Mr incredible said above
state 1 is a "stopped vehicle"
"-2 DRM: Prior to spending a Start MP (spending a MP to fire sD, unload, gun duel etc)"
this happens when a vehicle does other things apart from spend a movement point to start as Mr incredible stated firing smoke dispenser unloading infantry or a vehicle or even just firing itself during the movement phase is bounding fire


state 2, then the vehicle spends a movement point to start
it's now classified as a "non-stopped vehicle"
"0 DRM: After spending a Start MP but prior to Moving or after Moving and then expending a Stop MP"
this is a transitional state and only exists after the vehicle spent a movement point to start in before it actually begins to move.
this could include the vehicle changing its covered arc in a hex, again firing smoke or any of the other things mentioned above. With the exception of loading and unloading et cetera which have to be done while stationary.

Which is of course where we come to state 3
this is when a vehicle enters a new hex. this is a "moving vehicle"
+2 DRM: After Moving and not spending a Stop MP
this only applies when a vehicle has entered a new hex. It could have spent all bar one movement point up to that point in time.
A prime example a tank with 12 movement points can do 11 movement points worth of activity prior to moving directly forward into an open ground hex.
All the while it still classified either as a stopped vehicle or a non-stopped vehicle depending on whether it has or has not spent a movement point to start
it only becomes a moving vehicle when it enters a new hex

I won't go through the DRM's again because other people have set out perfectly
do hope this has helped

 

[jrv]

So at the beginning of MPh when a stopped vehicle spends a start MP (and successfully starts) the vehicle is non-stopped and Case L is off, ok but Case J doesn't yet apply.

Correct.

But should the vehicle move to a new location, that start mp that didn't count in Case J calculations now does count. -- Can this be right? The Mp expenditure doesn't count, then it does. Please confirm this is correct.

Also correct. A unit may typically expend any number of MP without becoming eligible for for case J, i.e. without becoming a Moving (C.8) target. For example, a FT-17 (five MP allotment) might expend one MP to start then turn two hexsides across a non-road hexside of a woods-road hex for two MP each VCA change (cost doubled per B13.41), after which it would have spent its entire MP allotment not subject to case L but also not subject to case J.

Also if a vehicle starts moves stops starts again... Case J is working all the while after the initial start and so on that second start mp case J is in play, yes?

Yes, and even while it is stopped, case J applies. Once a vehicle is eligible for case J it does not stop being eligible until at least the next player turn. Even if it became immobile or a wreck.

A vehicle can be in any of the following four states: stopped (case L applies) & not moving (C.8, case J does not apply), not stopped & not moving, not stopped & moving, and stopped & moving. Stopped & not-stopped are switched by expending a start MP or a stop MP (or by Bog, Immob result, etc), A unit may only change from not Moving to Moving during any one player turn; once it is Moving there is no way to go back to not Moving except to stop then have another turn begin.

JR

 

[Pyth]

Thank you, this is very helpful:

A vehicle can be in any of the following four states: stopped (case L applies) & not moving (C.8, case J does not apply), not stopped & not moving, not stopped & moving, and stopped & moving. Stopped & not-stopped are switched by expending a start MP or a stop MP (or by Bog, Immob result, etc), A unit may only change from not Moving to Moving during any one player turn; once it is Moving there is no way to go back to not Moving except to stop then have another turn begin.

 

[jrv]

At any point in his ASL experience, a player is either playing stopped/non-stopped & moving/not moving wrong, or has come to realize that these two are nearly orthogonal rules. The terms used sound like they ought to be synonyms for the same thing, but they are very different yet, confusingly, related.

Don't start me about Area Target Type vs. Area Fire.

JR

 

[BigAl737]

Don't start me about Area Target Type vs. Area Fire.
JR

If you did “start” about Area Target Type vs. Area Fire, you would be “non-stopped” about Area Target Type vs. Area Fire.

I think I got it. Great thread.