Case A for turreted weapons

turlusiflu

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The Russian tank moves to T7. Can the German tank fire its CMG changing its TCA and applying +2 DRM for Case A, although it cannot make any harm to the Russian tank?
If it is so, then the TCA is pointing W7. The Russian tank moves to U8, V8 and W9. The German fires then its MA to W9, changing again its MA pointing to X8. What is the Case A DRM? +2 for changing one hexspine, or +3 for changing 2 hexpines?
 

jrv

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The German tank may fire its CMG and change its TCA.

The second TCA change would be +2, per D3.51.

JR
 

turlusiflu

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OK. So, after firing the CMG, what would be the Case A DRM in these situations?:
  • The German tank fires its MA just after the CMG, also at T7
  • The Russian tank moves to U8 and the German fires its MA (not changing its TCA from its former shot of the CMG)
 

jrv

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OK. So, after firing the CMG, what would be the Case A DRM in these situations?:
  • The German tank fires its MA just after the CMG, also at T7
  • The Russian tank moves to U8 and the German fires its MA (not changing its TCA from its former shot of the CMG)
+2
+2

The MA "remembers" the last CA change. This DRM would apply in the DFPh as well if the German did not fire his MA until then. If the German fired its MA first with a +2 CA change DRM and kept ROF or then fired using intensive fire, its next MA shot would be +0 but its CMG shot would still be +2. Because the CMG (and other non-MA MGs) gets only one shot, you don't get that added complication when firing them. This thread suggests counters that might be made to keep track of the DRM. As the game equipment currently stands, you have to either remember or, as some players have suggested, place a die or another type of counter as a memory aid.

JR
 
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turlusiflu

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+2
+2

The MA "remembers" the last CA change. This DRM would apply in the DFPh as well if the German did not fire his MA until then. If the German fired its MA first with a +2 CA change DRM and kept ROF or then fired using intensive fire, its next MA shot would be +0 but its CMG shot would still be +2. Because the CMG (and other non-MA MGs) gets only one shot, you don't get that added complication when firing them. This thread suggests counters that might be made to keep track of the DRM. As the game equipment currently stands, you have to either remember or, as some players have suggested, place a die or another type of counter as a memory aid.

JR
But if, as you say, the MA remembers the last CA change, then if the MA fires at W9 instead of at T7 or U8 the DRM should be +3.

3.51 MAINTAINING CA: Once a vehicle fires any turret-mounted weapon, any of its other turret-mounted weapons which fire within the current respective CA must pay the same CA Change penalty as the first weapon which fired. If, after firing, another turret-mounted weapon (or the MA which has retained a Multiple ROF) wishes to fire at another target outside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM would be applicable based only on the move from the current TCA to the new TCA (C5.12) but only if the preceding shot(s) were taken at a Known enemy unit; otherwise no further change in TCA is allowed during that phase.

The sentence in bold should imply that if that weapon fires within the same TCA, there is no TCA change and thus there is no DRM penalty. But this is inconsistent with the first sentence. I think that this rule is written thinking on the DFPh, but not so clear for the enemy's MPh.
 
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Robin Reeve

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Either it did swivel the TCA to fire at T7 or U8, and had to turn it a second time to fire at W9 : only the last TCA chage counts, so +2 Case a DRM - the first change vs. T7 or U8 doesn't apply.
Or it didn't change TCA to fire previously to firing at W9, and +3 Case A DRM applies, as two hexpsines have been traversed (+2 +1).

Now, if firing at T7 or U8 with the CMG, with the +2 Case A DRM, if the Tiger wants to fire its Gun, the same +2 Case A DRM would apply, because it is firing within the same TCA.
The key word in the rule that you put in bold is "outside the current TCA" : If, after firing, another turret-mounted weapon (or the MA which has retained a Multiple ROF) wishes to fire at another target outside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM would be applicable based only on the move from the current TCA to the new TCA
 

turlusiflu

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But is it not deducted from your words in red that, if that same weapon fires at another target inside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM does not apply?
 
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Cpl Uhl

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To add to the debate, what if the initial "CA change" included the entire vehicle (and turret), for example in order to turn a less vulnerable target facing to the threat? Use the CMG to turn the VCA, pay +3 or more on that shot, then turn the turret 1 more click and pay only +2 (or less for a FT) to fire on a new hex. 3.51 does not specify TCA until the second sentence, so it would seem that the rule allows turning the VCA for the initial CA change. And what if you used the BMG to turn the entire vehicle for the initial CA change, fire the BMG (w/+3) then fire a turret mounted Gun a) after the initial CA change at the initial target hex (w/+3?) b) a new TCA at a new target hex (with only +2?)?

3.51 MAINTAINING CA: Once a vehicle fires any turret-mounted weapon, any of its other turret-mounted weapons which fire within the current respective CA must pay the same CA Change penalty as the first weapon which fired. If, after firing, another turret-mounted weapon (or the MA which has retained a Multiple ROF) wishes to fire at another target outside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM would be applicable based only on the move from the current TCA to the new TCA (C5.12) but only if the preceding shot(s) were taken at a Known enemy unit; otherwise no further change in TCA is allowed during that phase.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If you turn the VCA to fire the BMG first, and the later turn the TCA to fire the CMG, Case A for the VCA and TCA change both apply.
 

Robin Reeve

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But is it not deduced from your words in red that, if that same weapon fires at another target inside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM does not apply?
If it fires at a target inside the current TCA, it applies the Case A DRM that was used when the CA was changed previously to reach that TCA - if any - during that Fire Phase.
 

turlusiflu

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So,
A) if the CMG fires first at T7 then:
  1. if the MA fires at T7 the DRM is +2
  2. if the MA fires at W9 the DRM is +2
in this case there is no penalty for changing TCA 1 hexspine, the DRM is the same :oops::oops:!!

B) if the CMG does not fire at T7 then:
  1. if the MA fires at T7 the DRM is +2
  2. if the MA fires at W9 the DRM is +3
 
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turlusiflu

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What I think it would have to be:

The Defensive fire in the MPh has to be ruled upon waste of MP. Thus, assuming that the CMG fires at T7 upon 1 MP spent by the Russian tank, and the TCA is now pointing at W7:
  • if the MA fires also at T7 (upon the same MP spent), then the DRM is +2 for TCA change of 1 hexpine.
  • if the MA fires to U8 (upon a new MP spent), then the DRM is 0, because the TCA does not move from its previous position.
  • if the MA fires to W9 (upon the 4th MP spent), then the DRM is +2 for TCA change of 1 hexspine from its previous position.
This formula is consistent also with Prep and Def Fire.
 

Robin Reeve

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It is quite logical - traversing a CA less incurs less DRM.
No need to call the rules four lettered names.
Are you new to ASL?
It seems that the questions you ask about the rules are mostly accompanied by suggestions to rewrite them and (under)state that the game system is flawed.
 

turlusiflu

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Sorry, I apologize for this comment, it was a bad impulse.

It seems that the questions you ask about the rules are mostly accompanied by suggestions to rewrite them and (under)state that the game system is flawed.
Not my intention of rewriting them, just another interpretation that fits with the logics as I see it. The fact that I could be wrong wouldn't have to prevent that I give my opinion. I really want to buy your argument, but it still doesn't convinces me...
 
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jrv

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I am fairly sure the game designers were aware of the "inconsistency." They had a choice of a complicated system that tracked a complete history of CA changes and made a appropriate DRM or a simpler system that only remembered the last CA change. I infer that they understood this because there is another rule in the section that says that if the first CA change was made against an unknown target, no further CA changes may be made. Thus you can't use the CMG to fire against an empty hex, then turn only one hexspine for the MA. You can still sleaze if you can find a known target to make the first CA change. It's only a partial fix. But it's existence tells me the designers understood that by choosing "last CA change only" there was an opportunity for sleaze, and they wanted to minimize it even if they couldn't eliminate it without fundamentally changing the design. It may be a flaw, but I think it was a flaw that was made by designer's decision.

In your example it's not clear to me what is gained by exploiting this. Yes the TCA change DRM would be +2 if the Tiger waited until W9, but it could have fired at T7 for exactly the same TCA change DRM. What is so much better about shooting in W9 over T7. Further by waiting until W9 the Tiger would now have to apply the case J² limited-time-in-LOS penalty too because the T-34 is out of LOS in V8. Even if the woods doesn't exist, the shot in W9 is no better than the one in T7. And by using the CMG to fire at T7 the Tiger has lost one of its "spin" weapons.

If you work hard enough you can come up with situations where the designer's choice makes a significant difference, but it's actually pretty hard. I think that's part of why the rule was written as it is.

JR
 

turlusiflu

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Thank you very much for your explanation. Of course the designers have worked hard on these complex rules, but in this case maybe the wording is not clear enough, so I tried to find an interpretation, not to change the rule. My mistake nevertheless is not to COWTRA.
 
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