Case A DRMs cumulative or not

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
Consider the D3.51 EX.

During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its CMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a T type turret is +2 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM?
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,770
Reaction score
1,209
Country
llLithuania
Consider the D3.51 EX.

During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its CMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a T type turret is +2 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM?
Ummmmm....+2? Looking at the example, it says it is +2 also, but ROF was maintained and there is no Case A DRM for subsequent shots of the MA from that CA.

Now I'm curious to see why that answer is not as obvious as it seems at first blush....:hmmm:

Mathias has been around the block a number of times.
 
Last edited:

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
What I meant and should have said was: consider the situation described by the picture used by the D3.51 examples.
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,944
Reaction score
2,993
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
DRM for the final shot is +1 as depicted (D3.51 ... If, after firing, another turret-mounted weapon ... wishes to fire at another target outside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM would be applicable based only on the move from the current TCA to the new TCA ...) I am with Jazz. I think we are missing something, but I will bite. :bite: -- jim
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion it's +2. I would say, it's either +1 (one hexspine change for T type turret, ignoring the first CA change) or it's +3 DRM (+2 DRM for the first CA change, and +1 for the second). Depending on how you interpret the rules.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,770
Reaction score
1,209
Country
llLithuania
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion it's +2. I would say, it's either +1 (one hexspine change for T type turret, ignoring the first CA change) or it's +3 DRM (+2 DRM for the first CA change, and +1 for the second). Depending on how you interpret the rules.
The example in my book says it is a +1 only for the 2nd CA change of one spine for the ROF shot, This agrees with the rules and with a personal judgement by Perry at ASLOK a few years ago.

The rules seem pretty explicit to me?

Or am I missing something as usual?
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
DRM for the final shot is +1 as depicted (D3.51 ... If, after firing, another turret-mounted weapon ... wishes to fire at another target outside the current TCA, the Case A TH DRM would be applicable based only on the move from the current TCA to the new TCA ...) I am with Jazz. I think we are missing something, but I will bite. :bite: -- jim
After reading the rules, I could agree with that interpretation. It has some pretty weird (or... unexpected) effects though, which I haven't been aware of before. Like the fact you can use the CMG to reduce the amount of Case A penalty you pay for a MA shot, which effectively, under some circumstances, defeats the purpose of the rule which says that if you change CA and fire the CMG, your MA shot will pay the same Case CA DRM. A conveniently placed target behind your tank can suddenly make things "behind your back" very easy to hit. They need to be not within the same CA.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,770
Reaction score
1,209
Country
llLithuania
After reading the rules, I could agree with that interpretation. It has some pretty weird (or... unexpected) effects though, which I haven't been aware of before. Like the fact you can use the CMG to reduce the amount of Case A penalty you pay for a MA shot, which effectively, under some circumstances, defeats the purpose of the rule which says that if you change CA and fire the CMG, your MA shot will pay the same Case CA DRM. A conveniently placed target behind your tank can suddenly make things "behind your back" very easy to hit. They need to be not within the same CA.
Oh yes.....this was exactly why we asked Perry as it seemed distinctly sleazy...:smoke: That is the way the rules read.

I just love sleaze.....
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,944
Reaction score
2,993
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
After reading the rules, I could agree with that interpretation. It has some pretty weird (or... unexpected) effects though, which I haven't been aware of before. Like the fact you can use the CMG to reduce the amount of Case A penalty you pay for a MA shot, which effectively, under some circumstances, defeats the purpose of the rule which says that if you change CA and fire the CMG, your MA shot will pay the same Case CA DRM. A conveniently placed target behind your tank can suddenly make things "behind your back" very easy to hit. They need to be not within the same CA.
I believe it was brother Jazz that first pointed this out (at least to my recollection). I know I have taken to calling this the Jazz sleaze every since. One more thing: did you notice that when pivoting to shoot a concealed target, you may not pivot again? (D3.51: ... but only if the preceding shot(s) were taken at a Known enemy unit; otherwise no further change in TCA is allowed during that phase.) That is also a tricky little segment of rules. -- jim
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
The example in my book says it is a +1 only for the 2nd CA change of one spine for the ROF shot, This agrees with the rules and with a personal judgement by Perry at ASLOK a few years ago.
I'm not questioning the D3.51 examples. They make perfect sense. I'm just making up my own example, which does not include ROF.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,770
Reaction score
1,209
Country
llLithuania
I believe it was brother Jazz that first pointed this out (at least to my recollection). I know I have taken to calling this the Jazz sleaze every since.
Kinda makes me misty....<sniff>

One more thing: did you notice that when pivoting to shoot a concealed target, you may not pivot again? (D3.51: ... but only if the preceding shot(s) were taken at a Known enemy unit; otherwise no further change in TCA is allowed during that phase.) That is also a tricky little segment of rules. -- jim
Yeah, that is a very tricky segment of the rules. I followed it and understood it once. I would need to re-read again if it ever came up during a game.
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
OK, so consider this new example situation (also based on the D3.51 picture):

A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Then the T-34 enters hex W4. What's the CA change related DRM if the Pz IVH would fire its MA? D3.51 says "another target" but this is "the same target". But then, if you would interpret that rule as it literally needs to be a different target, you are in a void as to what Case A DRMs apply.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
10,770
Reaction score
1,209
Country
llLithuania
OK, so consider this new example situation (also based on the D3.51 picture):

A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Then the T-34 enters hex W4. What's the CA change related DRM if the Pz IVH would fire its MA? D3.51 says "another target" but this is "the same target". But then, if you would interpret that rule as literally needs to be a different target, you are in a void as to what Case A DRMs apply.
Hmmmm, I think you have found a corner case of sleaze/complexity/void.

It probably should not say "at another target" and it should actually have words to the effect "firing out of the new CA...."

Only Perry can make that call I'm afraid.
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,944
Reaction score
2,993
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
OK, so consider this new example situation (also based on the D3.51 picture):

A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Then the T-34 enters hex W4. What's the CA change related DRM if the Pz IVH would fire its MA? D3.51 says "another target" but this is "the same target". But then, if you would interpret that rule as it literally needs to be a different target, you are in a void as to what Case A DRMs apply.
I would still say +1 but semantically, I am on shakier ground here. You are correct about the "another target" language and what its implications are. I wonder if there is old Q&A on this? I do not have anything on this computer to read it. I will now have to call this the Mattias Corollary to the Jazz Sleaze. -- jim
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
17,220
Reaction score
3,736
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
One more thing: did you notice that when pivoting to shoot a concealed target, you may not pivot again? (D3.51: ... but only if the preceding shot(s) were taken at a Known enemy unit; otherwise no further change in TCA is allowed during that phase.)
One reason this is in the rule is probably to stop one from changing TCA several hexspines and shoot at an empty hex and then just make one final TCA change to fire at the real target.
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
Are you allowed to change TCA even though your target already is within the current TCA? For example, in my T-34 example, could the Pz IVH turn to W5/X4 and fire at the T-34 in X3 with the CMG, and then (firing at the same 1 MP expenditure) turn to X4/Y5 and fire the MA?
 

Ronnblom

Swedish Terminator
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
139
Location
Linköping, Sweden
Country
llSweden
I've constructed a whole series of examples, and answers to these would give a good understanding of how the rules should be interpreted.

Consider the situation described by the picture used by the D3.51 examples. My examples has nothing to do with the D3.51 examples except for using the same picture as a base.

EX1: During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its CMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a T type turret is +2 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM for that shot?

EX2: During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its BMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a NT type change is +4 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot?

EX3: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG as defensive first fire and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Then the T-34 enters hex W4. What is the CA change related DRM if the Pz IVH would turn its TCA and fire its MA? D3.51 says "another target" but this is "the same target". Does it literally have to be a different targets?

EX4: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG as defensive first fire and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Firing at the same 1 MP expenditure, the Pz IVH turns TCA to X4/W5 and fires its MA. Is it allowed to change its TCA even though the target is already within its current TCA? What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot?

EX5: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its BMG as defensive first fire and changes VCA to X4/Y5. At the same 1 MP expenditure, the Pz IV turns the TCA to X4/Y5 and fires its MA. What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot? What if the Pz IVH had held its MA fire until the T-34 entered W4? What would the Case A related DRM be for that shot?
 

Ole Boe

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,874
Reaction score
10
Location
there...
Country
llNorway
EX1: During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its CMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a T type turret is +2 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM for that shot?
+1

EX2: During its PFPh, the Pz IVH in 19X5 fire its BMG at the 4-4-7 in Z5. The CA change related DRM for the two hexspines change with a NT type change is +4 (Case A). Then the Pz IVH fires its MA at the 4-4-7 in Z3. What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot?
+4

EX3: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG as defensive first fire and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Then the T-34 enters hex W4. What is the CA change related DRM if the Pz IVH would turn its TCA and fire its MA? D3.51 says "another target" but this is "the same target". Does it literally have to be a different targets?
+1 (No - it makes absolutely no sense that it is worse to track the same target than to fire on a new target)

EX4: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its CMG as defensive first fire and changes TCA to X4/Y5. Firing at the same 1 MP expenditure, the Pz IVH turns TCA to X4/W5 and fires its MA. Is it allowed to change its TCA even though the target is already within its current TCA?
No.

What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot?
NA, but would be +1 if allowed.

EX5: A T-34 enters hex X3. The Pz IVH fires its BMG as defensive first fire and changes VCA to X4/Y5. At the same 1 MP expenditure, the Pz IV turns the TCA to X4/Y5 and fires its MA. What is the Case A related DRM for the MA shot?
5 (+4 [NT] +1)

What if the Pz IVH had held its MA fire until the T-34 entered W4? What would the Case A related DRM be for that shot?
6 (+4[NT] +2) ...assuming I read the example correctly.
 
Top