Card-driven ASL

Mister T

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It's interesting the example you use of converting a 12 roll to an 11. Yet, sometimes, when that MG has been giving you some real jip, the respite comes when the opponent rolls 12. "He's had HIS fun". Changing that 12 to an 11 is too big a deal for me.

But good luck with them nevertheless. One man's milk is another man's poison and all that.

A marketing tip though...a special SS pack (comes with free wet wipes). I'll let you have that idea for free :nod:
I understand you fear that a card may unravel an entire scenario. Believe me (or not!), I have been very careful to calibrate cards so that the advantage given is manageable by the opponent. I prefer more smaller events than few big events.

Now on the 12->11 card, we have to disagree, i think it's a great card, but it will have to be used very carefully. Should i use it now or should i accept the breakdown because i want to keep "insurance" in case a big weapon malfunctions.
That creates fascinating dilemma i think.

Otherwise i would not venture into the "men in black" market, there are well-known specialists around that adequately serve their customer base, it seems. :)
 

Brad M-V

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This would work as a good buffer system for correcting your opponents mistakes in game, and hopefully justify any negative vibes when doing so if both players agree to use the system. For instance, if you correct the other player's booboo proper, you play a card, but if you're wrong he gets to play one of his instead. This slyly removes the stigma of being a jerk for telling the other guy he broke the rules. <G>

You could also use it to punish each other for taking too long to play your turn...
 

von Marwitz

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So far in the discussion we've seen a fair number of proposals how the cards could be used:
  • punishing the opponent for taking too long
  • balancing a fateful roll a bit (snakes, boxcars, Sniper-kill, etc.)
  • add a little fog of war / create unexpected occurrences
  • add simply a little flavor to the game
And we've seen quite a range of thoughts on the number of cards used:
  • 2-3 per turn
  • 1-2 per (average) game
  • 1 card triggered by special occasions only
Furthermore we've had various ideas of the number of cards that can be held at a time:
  • someone said 6 or so IIRC
  • just the one you pull and play
  • no set limits
It seems that there could be numerous ways in which these cards could be employed.
The effects on the game could range from marginal to significant. It just depends on how people agree to use them.

As for the fear of their unraveling a scenario:
I would not fear that more or less that a good or bad die roll.

For me, the whole thing is about flavor. Originating from the Pen&Paper crowd, I might be more suspectible to that than others. I still remember Klaus Fischer of HoB fame hosting a team-double blind at Grenadier tournament many years ago: All of a sudden, our American side had a LOS to a US truck parked at a crossroads. Double-checking our OoB, we found that it was not listed. When a leader of ours entered the hex of the truck, we were informed that the driver had lost his way searching for XYZ regiment to deliver his load of APCR. Our leader had commandeered the truck with the effect that the special ammo Depletion numbers for APCR were raised some for each of our tanks parked in the truck hex for a while for the duration of the game. Klaus had added some other tidbids like this, too. It brought great flavor to the game without signifcantly affecting balance and I found it great fun. Conceivably, the cards can do something similar.

von Marwitz
 
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Bob Walters

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It is not called SNAFU, but there is one in the mix which has similar effects.

And there's another card called SNAFU, but with a different effet, but well in the 'Snafu' spirit (as far as i understand it).
You could come up with a sub set that are designed for solo play.
 

Mister T

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You could come up with a sub set that are designed for solo play.
My answer would be two-fold:

First, solo players usually find their own "private" tricks (for HIP, concealment, etc.) to play what has been designed as a two-player game. In the same manner, they may get "ownership" of the T-cards and devise their own ways/rules to handle these cards. As said this does not seem impossible IMO.

Second, a way to help could be to look at the mix and isolate a sub-set of cards that would 'better fit' with solo play. This may fit with your 'sub-set' suggestion. After ASLOK, i will take a look at the cards with this in view and try to identify such a subset, if this is what you have in mind.
 

shirlfactor

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Could the cards be used to help balance a bad roar scenario? For example say the scenario is 70-30 one side or another. Maybe the side that's most likely going to lose gets additional cards or is able to play more cards during the scenario which may even out the odds a bit making some of those scenarios that are already printed and unbalanced a chance to be played now that the underdog has a legitimate shot to compete. Or the cards can be used as part of the bidding system when deciding sides for tournaments .
 

Paul M. Weir

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First, solo players usually find their own "private" tricks (for HIP, concealment, etc.) to play what has been designed as a two-player game. In the same manner, they may get "ownership" of the T-cards and devise their own ways/rules to handle these cards. As said this does not seem impossible IMO.
It's hard to put in words. Solo play has to contend with both the normal single player almost godlike view and knowledge of both his "opponent"'s forces and intent. The randomness of dr/DR does mitigate that somewhat. That double knowledge is the main drawback of solo play. Are cards going to make it worse? That would be my fear, driving a solo game the last few inches over the edge?
Could the cards be used to help balance a bad roar scenario? For example say the scenario is 70-30 one side or another. Maybe the side that's most likely going to lose gets additional cards or is able to play more cards during the scenario which may even out the odds a bit making some of those scenarios that are already printed and unbalanced a chance to be played now that the underdog has a legitimate shot to compete. Or the cards can be used as part of the bidding system when deciding sides for tournaments .
Interesting possible usage. In principle just like any adjustment of a scenario OOB should help right balance issues. The main problem initially would be getting a feel as to how a card system affects balance and that would require a lot of plays by lots of different players. Do you give the less favoured side an extra card per deal or let them drop a card and randomly pick another if they wish, etc? Designers have 20+ years of examples of balance tweaking to look back on, but none with cards.

While I might be tempted to try cards for giggles, I would be wary in a more serious game. At least until a decent corpus of experience was built up in the community, so as to be able to judge. This comes back to what will always be a brake on adding new facets, until they become widely used they won't become popular, catch 22.
 

Mister T

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Could the cards be used to help balance a bad roar scenario? For example say the scenario is 70-30 one side or another. Maybe the side that's most likely going to lose gets additional cards or is able to play more cards during the scenario which may even out the odds a bit making some of those scenarios that are already printed and unbalanced a chance to be played now that the underdog has a legitimate shot to compete. Or the cards can be used as part of the bidding system when deciding sides for tournaments .
The T-cards can be used indeed as a balancing device. This would have to done on a case-by-case basis depending on the caracteristics of a given scenario. This can be certainly done in the framework of games between regular opponents. On the tournament scene, i would naturally be delighted if a TD were to try on the experience. However this would mean that all players (or at least half) own the cards). TDs are usually reluctant to opt for extra features as they fear that this would reduce attendance. This is understandable. And, in all fairness, the ABS used in most events works already in a satisfactorily manner because quite a few players have developed a grasp of how some permanent additions /reductions to a scenario can have a bearing on a scenario. I hope that this provides a balanced complement to your nice suggestion.
 

Mister T

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It's hard to put in words. Solo play has to contend with both the normal single player almost godlike view and knowledge of both his "opponent"'s forces and intent. The randomness of dr/DR does mitigate that somewhat. That double knowledge is the main drawback of solo play. Are cards going to make it worse? That would be my fear, driving a solo game the last few inches over the edge?
Paul, I think your fears are a bit overblown. Since you have a vast experience of solo play (since you refuse to play with anyone, even with Irish fellows), it should be feasible to find a solution that pleases both sides of your cortex, nothing more, nothing less. But if it's not to your taste, simply put, no bitterness from me, i, like most here, will still read with utmost interest your posts on the most intimate parts of an AFV, always happy to learn new things :nod:
 

Paul M. Weir

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I'm more feeling cautious rather than in dread. After all, I don't have to use cards, so if I don't like it, I won't.

In the end I suppose cards will have no worse effect than my rules blunders and such :D.
 

von Marwitz

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And, in all fairness, the ABS used in most events works already in a satisfactorily manner because quite a few players have developed a grasp of how some permanent additions /reductions to a scenario can have a bearing on a scenario.
What one could try is the following:

The TD selects scenarios/ABS as usual. But if both players agree, they can instead use the cards instead of ABS. The cards used instead of ABS could be a "prepared deck" adapted to the scenario.

The designer could contact a TD to see if they are willing for such a venture and either prepare decks as a subsitute for ABS himself (as Mister T is experienced enough to do that) or do this together with the TD.

It would require a willing TD and some extra preparation. If the decks are prepared (I am thinking of up to 3 for each side for ABS 1, 2, and 3 or whatever would equal such an ABS balance), the content of the cards could be printed on a slip of paper. This way, at that point ownership would not be necessary and - if both players are willing - they would have the opportunity but are not required to test how the cards would work. Some experience about the 'feel' of it could be gained and with it, acceptance could develop or proposals for improvement based on practical usage be provided.

von Marwitz
 

Mister T

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What one could try is the following:

The TD selects scenarios/ABS as usual. But if both players agree, they can instead use the cards instead of ABS. The cards used instead of ABS could be a "prepared deck" adapted to the scenario.
I draw from your message the interesting idea of a prepared sub-deck, which would be hand-picked for the tournament. However, i am also attached to the versatile, all-weather nature, of the T-cards as i have the impression that the cards and their underpinning rules are robust enough to adapt to most situations. Anyway something worth discussing with any TD, if the opportunity arises.
 

volgaG68

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I myself have no interest in the cards. Obviously there are those who are interested, though. No big deal, Korea doesn't interest me at all either and I won't be buying it. Not every ASL product will be bought by every ASL player, as much as we joke to the contrary. Just hope you find a sizable enough niche of them who will make it worth your while, and it appears you have. Not everyone bought DASL when it came out, but they foresaw enough of an audience to go ahead with it anyway. Not everyone likes the idea of a fancy set of OBA cards, but Ritter foresaw enough of an audience to go ahead anyway.

Don't try to please or 'sell' everyone, it will never happen. Like any other ASL after-market product, you will undoubtedly find an audience for your cards, likely making it worthwhile for you having gone to the trouble of devising and manufacturing them. It appears there is already some enthusiasm for them.
 

Robin Reeve

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It's hard to put in words. Solo play has to contend with both the normal single player almost godlike view and knowledge of both his "opponent"'s forces and intent. The randomness of dr/DR does mitigate that somewhat. That double knowledge is the main drawback of solo play. Are cards going to make it worse? That would be my fear, driving a solo game the last few inches over the edge?
For solo play, I rather would see cards which would work in a way similar to the Random Events of SASL - with some results that trigger them (quite like rolling a SAN) or with a RPh special DR.
I don't think, from what I am guessing from this thread, that the T-cards would function that way - and even though I play solo a lot, I like the idea of adding some fog of war and/or unexpected outcomes in a game. As a non official variant, just for fun - fun which is the essence of what most players are looking for (and, of course, everybody has his/her idea of what is fun).

But one could imagine a solitaire system with drawn cards, adaptable to any scenario - rather than developing a solo system with missions like SASL - as an alternative (or a complement) to the existing tentative solo rules that some players have developed.
 

c600g

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But one could imagine a solitaire system with drawn cards, adaptable to any scenario - rather than developing a solo system with missions like SASL - as an alternative (or a complement) to the existing tentative solo rules that some players have developed.
One has! Peter started out with ASL SK, and now seems to be moving it towards Full ASL.

Alan
 

Mister T

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Don't try to please or 'sell' everyone, it will never happen.
Don't worry, i am not that delusional.

I just try to be respectful for the people that provide their opinion on the T-cards and answer them at best as i can.

I know that the product will not be of the liking of everyone.
I know that in the western world, more and more find it hard to make ends meet, and obviously non-essential items are cut first. The bankcrupcy of Toys-r-Us is a reminder of that situation (although it may be possible that firm-specific factors have also played a role, not following so well this particular sector).
 

Paul M. Weir

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I confess that I was a very good computer programmer, which really honed my good ability at figuring out potential problems and shortcomings. Devils in the details and all that. The result is that I am more likely to see the downsides than the upsides. Well maybe not entirely, but at least concentrate on the pitfalls on the way to the benefits. You can't get to the shiny new land if you're flat on your face. So my doubt is as much or maybe more a reflection of whom I am than the idea.
 

RobZagnut

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I confess that I was a very good computer programmer, which really honed my good ability at figuring out potential problems and shortcomings. Devils in the details and all that. The result is that I am more likely to see the downsides than the upsides. Well maybe not entirely, but at least concentrate on the pitfalls on the way to the benefits. You can't get to the shiny new land if you're flat on your face. So my doubt is as much or maybe more a reflection of whom I am than the idea.
Well I'm glad the German high-command didn't poo poo the idea before they bombed Pearl Harbor.
 
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