Captured Vehicles

[ecz]

This in theory could happen is scenarios like AP 100 Coal in their Stockings when a side abandons many HTs removing the MGs for a better infantry usage and enemy units try to steal the vehicles and use them to quickly exit the board.

Rules say:
21.22 TEMPORARY CREW: An armed vehicle which is captured takes in a new inherent crew by removing the MMC that entered it (or exchanging a capturing squad for a HS)

questions:
-is the full Squad exchanged for a HS (i.e. a HS is lost) or is it deployed?
-what if the "armed vehicle" is NOT armed because all MGs have been removed? does it become like a truck or a jeep? so all it needs is a inherent driver and the S/HS can use it as passenger? I cannot find a definition of "armed vehicle"

It seems that if the vehicle is "armed" than the S becomes a HS and the vehicle has its movement halved and needs an extra start - dr in case of Red Number for MP. If the same vehicle is unarmed (because all MG were removed) nothing of the above applies.

 

[Vinnie]

The squad is exchanged for a HS because part of it us now the crew so effectively it is deployed.

 

[Honosbinda]

The entire crew abandoned the vehicle with the weapon and did not 'leave behind' an inherent driver. Were that the case, the rules would so indicate; moreover, it would not be necessary to mark the vehicle as abandoned per D5.41. Yes, it's certainly true that the vehicle would be better off moving around with an inherent driver! But there isn't one.

Yes, the remaining HS is lost, because the S is exchanged (not deployed). As written in the rule.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Rules say:
21.22 TEMPORARY CREW: An armed vehicle which is captured takes in a new inherent crew by removing the MMC that entered it (or exchanging a capturing squad for a HS)

questions:
-is the full Squad exchanged for a HS (i.e. a HS is lost) or is it deployed?

Pretty sure it is deployed - i.e., one HS jumps in, one remains outside.

-what if the "armed vehicle" is NOT armed because all MGs have been removed?

The presence of MG does not determine whether it is armed or not - it depends on whether it has an inherent crew.

From the Index:
Armed (any Personnel unit is Armed unless currently represented by an Unarmed counter (A20.54) not possessing a functioning Gun/SW, as is any non-Abandoned vehicle with an Inherent Crew): (see also Unarmed)

So an Abandoned vehicle is not armed.

does it become like a truck or a jeep? so all it needs is a inherent driver and the S/HS can use it as passenger? I cannot find a definition of "armed vehicle"

No - you are thinking of an "unarmored" vehicle - not unarmed. When it comes to capturing vehicles it is a matter if the being an AFV or not - not if it is armed or not.

It seems that if the vehicle is "armed" than the S becomes a HS and the vehicle has its movement halved and needs an extra start - dr in case of Red Number for MP. If the same vehicle is unarmed (because all MG were removed) nothing of the above applies.

See above - the vehicle being "armed" is not a factor.

 

[Honosbinda]

Umm, no, 'exchanging a squad for a half squad' does not mean it is 'deployed.' That is, 'deploying' has a different definition from 'exchanging.' I'm very sure that if the author had intended to say 'deploying' he would have said it. It is certainly possible that if someone asks for a rules clarification, the person who answers will pretend that the word exchanging means deploying and has always meant deploying for ASL, but that won't change the meaning of the words as they are in spite of that minor subterfuge

Now, it could be that the rule needs amended, I don't disagree with that possibility, but as it stands, the squad is removed and exchanged for the HS.

 

[ecz]

Thanks Klas, and everyone else answering here.
So the unarmed vehicle is actually "armed" because requires a crew. This means that the enemy HS even if decides to the steal the AA 4FP jeep instead of one of the HTs (yes it was a large parking left unattended) in any case pays the MP penalty ( halved MPs). This made hopeless from the beginning this desperate plan tried by my opponent in AP 100, since the board edge was too far.

 

[ecz]

Umm, no, 'exchanging a squad for a half squad' does not mean it is 'deployed.' That is, 'deploying' has a different definition from 'exchanging.' I'm very sure that if the author had intended to say 'deploying' he would have said it. It is certainly possible that if someone asks for a rules clarification, the person who answers will pretend that the word exchanging means deploying and has always meant deploying for ASL, but that won't change the meaning of the words as they are in spite of that minor subterfuge

Now, it could be that the rule needs amended, I don't disagree with that possibility, but as it stands, the squad is removed and exchanged for the HS.

I must agree with Klas instead, when a unit is "lost" the definition used in the rules is "replaced" or "reduced". Never Exchanged. Besides in the index about "deploying" there is a reference to the Vehicle Capture:

Deployment A1.31 [Automatic (Guard/Prisoner/Scrounging Wrecks): A20.5, A21.22, D10.5]

 

[Robin Reeve]

Actually, exchanging the capturing Squad for a HS, means that there now is a HS out of the vehicle, and the other HS (having entered the vehicle) has become the inherent crew - and thus does not take counter form.
That is, you now have a crewed vehicle and a HS in the Location, rather than a non crewed vehicle and a squad.

 

[Honosbinda]

ECZ -- good catch about A21.22 being referred to in the Index, but it remains an unfortunate use of the word EXCHANGING in the rule. And now I see the interpretation as indicated by Robin could be valid, but the wording is such that the outcome is ambiguous and resulted in a question by the OP in the first place!

Who is going to think of looking under the index under 'DEPLOYMENT' after reading rule A21.22? Frankly, that is expecting too much of the player; the matter of how this is handled is improperly stated and not cross-referenced except in for a word in the Index not even used in the rule.

I still submit that it would be far better to change the wording in A21.22 to indicate automatic deployment as indicated in the INDEX. After all, the body of the rules should be most accurate beyond any chart or player aid such as an Index. But I doubt my view will carry enough weight to actually merit a change for the better, regardless of its correctness.

cheers

 

[Robin Reeve]

Next question/remark : if the Temporary crew takem form exits the vehicle, it takes the form of a HS. Could it recombine with a HS (under the normal conditions required by the rules) ?
I would believe that it could.

 

[Tooz]

Avoid this issue by voluntarily destroying the vehicle after abandoning it?

 

[Binchois]

Next question/remark : if the Temporary crew takem form exits the vehicle, it takes the form of a HS. Could it recombine with a HS (under the normal conditions required by the rules) ?
I would believe that it could.

I believe so as well. But this because I assume that a HS remains that same HS even when inside the vehicle. D5.1 does state that a temporary crew is treated as an Inherent Crew (except as modified), so its original Morale Level becomes the automatically-higher ML that an Inherent Crew would have had. But otherwise I think it would be treated as when SMC(s) man a vehicle (A21.21): make note of who's inside and their counters reappear if they again exit the vehicle.

One problem which persists in this thread is that a weaponless (all weapons disabled) vehicle is still considered armed when manned by its Inherent Crew. But it becomes unarmed when that Crew abandons it. Well, an unarmed vehicle needs only an Inherent Driver to maneuver around the mapboard. While I think the rules intend that one still needs a "crew" to re-man a formerly-crewed vehicle, the possibility exists that A21.21 is meant to apply:

21.21 TEMPORARY DRIVER: An unarmed vehicle which is captured takes on a new inherent driver at no cost to a MMC captor and can be operated by him even to the extent of leaving a Melee hex as per 11.71. If the vehicle was captured by a SMC, that SMC is removed until the vehicle takes on a new crew (D5.42) or is Abandoned.​

​

Once again, I wouldn't play this way (not without a "heated discussion"!). Indeed, A21.22 states that at least two SMCs are needed to even move an AFV. Still, the RB could use a little more clarity on this point.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Avoid this issue by voluntarily destroying the vehicle after abandoning it?

Unless you have a vehicular crew around which can take the place of the HS as a Temporary crew...
As situation that could possibly occur once in ten thousand games, of course.