Can you begin a dash from a foxhole?

cohort

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A leader and squad are in a foxhole in a non-Open Ground hex. The stack declares a dash, spending 1 MF to exit the foxhole, 2 MF in the road hex with smoke, and then 2 MF into a building on the opposite side of the road. Does expending the 1 MF to exit the foxhole prevent the units from declaring a dash?

The relevant portions of the A4.63 dash rules read: "Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular Location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure of this two-hex move is <= the unit's available MF."

"The Dashing unit may not have expended any MF prior to the Dash [EXC: SMOKE grenade placement attempt;24.1] ..."
 

Binchois

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I doubt it. Unlike during the RtPh, entering/exiting a Foxhole counts as a separate expenditure from the MF spent to enter/exit the hex itself, even allowing defensive first fire while the unit is still "above" the Entrenchment.

You cited the relevant passage under A4.63. The MF spent to exit the Foxhole would indeed be MFs spent prior to the Dash itself.

It feels weird, though. A unit could hop a wall while making a Dash. Why not jump out of a hole? Perhaps a good one for Perry...but until any official Errata is offered, I think the rules deny the possibility.
 

R Hooks

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I doubt it. Unlike during the RtPh, entering/exiting a Foxhole counts as a separate expenditure from the MF spent to enter/exit the hex itself, even allowing defensive first fire while the unit is still "above" the Entrenchment.

You cited the relevant passage under A4.63. The MF spent to exit the Foxhole would indeed be MFs spent prior to the Dash itself.

It feels weird, though. A unit could hop a wall while making a Dash. Why not jump out of a hole? Perhaps a good one for Perry...but until any official Errata is offered, I think the rules deny the possibility.
I have just the opposite view. I suspect you can both exit a foxhole and jump a wall if a leader is with the dash.
 

Eagle4ty

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I think Binchois has it correct even though the Dashing unit isn't changing location within the hex he is Dashing from while moving out of foxhole, he is changing status and expending a separate MF prior to making the dash; unlike crossing a hedge/wall where the additional MF are spent in the "dashing" hex in conjunction with moving there. The only noted exception for expending additional MFs prior to the dash is for placing SMOKE grenades as I see it. However, like Binchois, I agree perhaps that should be reviewed and hopefully perhaps see an errata change as it certainly would be possible (WARNING! Reality argument-but then again it is a game based upon actual combat possibilities-Been there. Done that!).
 

mgmasl

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No wall crossing to enter or exit the road?
 

Robin Reeve

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A unit in an entrenchment may not Dash, as it would need to expend MF prior to the Dash (EXC: exiting a Trench on a Hill to dash through an adjacent road at a lower level).
A4.63 ... The Dashing unit may not have expended any MF prior to the Dash [EXC: SMOKE grenade placement attempt; 24.1]
The MF to cross a hexside - e.g. a hedge, wall, bocage. - is part of the cost paid to enter the road hex, and thus is not expended prior entering it.
 

von Marwitz

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I have just the opposite view. I suspect you can both exit a foxhole and jump a wall if a leader is with the dash.
I support this view. At least that it should be this way.

IMHO exiting the Foxhole should be part of the Dash rather than 'prior' MP expenditure.

More problematic it the following part of the rule:

"A4.63 DASH: Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF. ..."

"Directly" seems to imply that the Dashing unit cannot be attacked [EXC: Smoke grenade placement??] before being in the street.

Bonus question:
Would a Snap shot be possible on the unit when exiting the original Location?

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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I support this view. At least that it should be this way.

IMHO exiting the Foxhole should be part of the Dash rather than 'prior' MP expenditure.

More problematic it the following part of the rule:

"A4.63 DASH: Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF. ..."

"Directly" seems to imply that the Dashing unit cannot be attacked [EXC: Smoke grenade placement??] before being in the street.

Bonus question:
Would a Snap shot be possible on the unit when exiting the original Location?

von Marwitz
Remember, of course, that a move can be a Dash versus some firers, yet not to others:

A4.63....Because the existence of an Open Ground Location can be dependent on the LOS of any potential firer into that Location, it is possible that a declared Dash might not qualify as such vs one or more DEFENDING units. In this case, Dash First-Fire penalties may apply to some DEFENDERS but not to others.​

Also, a Snap Shot would be possible during a Dash, but wouldn't impact the legality of a Dash since that is determined by checking LOS from the first to the starting and ending Location. Clearly, all this is traced to the hex center:

A4.63 Infantry may declare a Dash ...if it declares a Dash move to a particular Location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road....For purposes of determining the legality of a Dash move, any Location out of the LOS of a firer is also considered a non-Open Ground Location.​
I would suspect that a very high percentage of Dash moves could be Snap Shot against, but typically this is detrimental to the firer (quartered FP [thx Klas!] plus no FFMO/FFNAM in a Snap Shot).
 
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von Marwitz

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Yes - the FP would be quartered. There is also a Q&A in this, IIRC.
I remember something in that line, but this was dealing with a Snap Shot against exiting the road location (you will end up in the Dashed-to Location if you break due to the Snap shot attack, which can be important with regard to Building Control, i.e. if the SnapShot Pins the unit, it would still end up in the Dashed-to Location and thus - because still Good Order - take Control of the Building).

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Here's the Q&A:

A4.63 & A8.15 A Dashing unit is attacked as it leaves its starting hex with a Snapshot. Would the
FP of this attack be halved or quartered? Would FFMO/FFNAM apply?
A. Quartered. No. [An97]

I am not sure how the 1st edition wording was - but I think this answer can be derived from the 2nd edition rules as is.
 

R Hooks

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Didn't we go through a several year long debate about the cost of exiting a foxhole being paid in the hex entered? Wasn't that changed to being paid in the hex you enter? I may have it wrong, but if we did that, the foxhole exit cost and the wall crossing cost will both be paid in the first hex entered, the road.
 

Robin Reeve

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Wasn't that changed to being paid in the hex you enter?
The debate is that a unit exiting a FH combines the exit MF with the MF of the next hex entered during the RtPh only (thus possibly losing concealment and suffering FFMO).
During MPh and APh, it doesn't (thus avoiding Interdiction if the FH is in OG).
The rules never were changed.
And of course, you have the usual debate between people wanting change and other defending the sacred shrine.
In the end, we all play the rules as written, whatever problematic they may seem... or not.
 

von Marwitz

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Didn't we go through a several year long debate about the cost of exiting a foxhole being paid in the hex entered? Wasn't that changed to being paid in the hex you enter? I may have it wrong, but if we did that, the foxhole exit cost and the wall crossing cost will both be paid in the first hex entered, the road.
I think most agree that's how it should be to eliminate the Foxholes as 'death-traps'.
But with the rules as written that is not the case: You spend the 1MF for exiting the Foxhole in the Foxhole hex.

von Marwitz
 

R Hooks

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Ok I guess if we allowed dash from a foxhole, we'd get requests to dash from a first floor location with a stairwell, since it too costs 1 MF.
 

Eagle4ty

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Ok I guess if we allowed dash from a foxhole, we'd get requests to dash from a first floor location with a stairwell, since it too costs 1 MF.
Although that would be from another non-ADJACENT location (unlike a foxhole/trench) and prohibited anyway.
 

mgmasl

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Not exactly.. foxhole is the same location adjacent to a road.. so the question.. a unit upstairs is clearly in the same hex but not the same location.
A similar case would be dismount from a vehicle per 1 MF and use dash to cross the adjacent road.
Surely both of them not allowed at dash, but clearly the same location.
 

Binchois

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I'm not bothered by foxhole "deathtraps" from a rules/gameplay or realism perspective (though I have been burned by them more than I care to remember). A squad under fire in a foxhole should feel that they need to stay hunkered down. And leaving should pose some risk. If you could combine the exit MF with the entrance of an adjacent hex, it would be a frequent tactic for entrenched units to simply disappear into an out-of-LOS hex, without the DEFENDER even getting a shot off.

You already have two "safe" ways of exiting a Foxhole: cautiously advance away at the end of your turn or - if your units are getting a bit jumpy - run away screaming during the RtPh.
 
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