Can an SMC posses a 5PP weapon while riding a tank?

John Fedoriw

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Hi gents,

I have a situation where it is desirable to have a Russin leader ride a tank while possessing an MMG.

Per the rules:

"D6.2 RIDERS: ...Rider capacity is limited to a maximum of 14 PP."
So you cannot load a Russian MMG onto a tank with a squad (that would be 15 PP). But a leader is only 1 PP and the MMG he possesses is 5 PP...so we have 6 PP total and are under the 14 PP limit.

However
"A4.11 MOVEMENT FACTOR (MF): ...[EXC: The MF allotment of a SMC is reduced to four MF if it mounts, rides, or dismounts any form of conveyance during that Player Turn. ..."

So a leader does not have 6 MFs when loading. He is unable to move an MMG unless he has 6 MFs or is doing a A4.134 MINIMUM MOVE which is illegal when loading.

I didn't see anything in D6.4 LOADING that seemed to clarify this for except that it costs 1 MF to load.

So I suspect that the leader cannot load a Russian MMG onto a tank.

Can anyone confirm this for me?

But....

If he cannot load onto a tank with an MMG can he start the game on the tank possessing the MMG which he will later try and remove when he bails out? Or could he unload from the tank and leave the MMG unpossessed on it to be removed later by 2 SMC or a HS which later rides the tank just to get the MMG?


Thanks,
John
 

bprobst

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He is unable to move an MMG unless he has 6 MFs or is doing a A4.134 MINIMUM MOVE which is illegal when loading.
He cannot move any sort of MMG, period. (Unless it can be dm and reduced to 2PP.)

A4.42 "A SMC may never portage more than two PP ..."

If he cannot load onto a tank with an MMG can he start the game on the tank possessing the MMG
Yes, of course. Hard-pressed to think why you would do this.

which he will later try and remove when he bails out?
I don't think so, since Bailing Out consumes all remaining MF (at least 1), and he can't move at all while possessing > 2 PP. In any case, Bailing Out can be hazardous to a SW's health, per D6.24, with a 50% chance of malfunction even under the best possible circumstances, and automatic elimination otherwise. D6.24.

Or could he unload from the tank and leave the MMG unpossessed on it
No, you can never leave an unpossessed SW on a vehicle (with EXC for halftracks and Carriers, and a couple of specific vehicles as described in their Chapter H notes, although typically those vehicles only have a 1PP capacity). D6.4. (I've always thought it odd that you can't load up a truck with gear and send it off to where that gear is needed. Must be Union rules or something.)
 

John Fedoriw

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Firstly, thanks for the help Bruce.

Regarding this:
He cannot move any sort of MMG, period. (Unless it can be dm and reduced to 2PP.)

A4.42 "A SMC may never portage more than two PP ..."
Thank you. That answers that quite definitively.

Yes, of course. Hard-pressed to think why you would do this.
I have Russians with an MMG and several tanks that have to cross board 19 and secure a village in 6 turns. I plan to use riders and armored assault to cross the OG but don't want to be slowed down lugging the MMG along and don't want to leave it behind where it will not aid the attack. Because I cannot deploy as Russians and can't load it on a tank with a full squad the only unit that I have left to possess it as a rider is a leader.

I don't think so, since Bailing Out consumes all remaining MF (at least 1), and he can't move at all while possessing > 2 PP. In any case, Bailing Out can be hazardous to a SW's health, per D6.24, with a 50% chance of malfunction even under the best possible circumstances, and automatic elimination otherwise. D6.24.
Aha! I see. I agree with you on all points except the last one. A 50% chance of malfunction is better than abandoning the MMG prior to charging across the field. Better to bring it along and possibly destroy it than leave it behind.

No, you can never leave an unpossessed SW on a vehicle (with EXC for halftracks and Carriers, and a couple of specific vehicles as described in their Chapter H notes, although typically those vehicles only have a 1PP capacity). D6.4. (I've always thought it odd that you can't load up a truck with gear and send it off to where that gear is needed. Must be Union rules or something.)
I don't see that in D6.4. The last sentence of D6.4 says: "SW carried by a vehicle's Passenger PP capacity can be unloaded/Recovered only by Passengers of the same vehicle.". That doesn't specifically preclude leaving a SW on the vehicle. So I am thinking the leader, MMG nd tank drive across the field, the leader disembarks, later, if feasible, a HS or 2 leaders load on the tank and later unload with the MG. (I know this scenario is unlikely but it's better than abandoning the SW.) I will look further in the rules to see if I find where it states you can never leave an unpossessed SW on a vehicle but for now I respectfully disagree.

Anyway thanks again for your input.

John
 

ScottRomanowski

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That doesn't specifically preclude leaving a SW on the vehicle.
See the 7th sentence of 6.4: "A SW may not be loaded onto or remain aboard an AFV without Passenger/Rider accompaniment [EXC: any halftrack or Carrier may retain any SW placed in it if those SW apply to that vehicle’s Passenger PP capacity]."

There's errata (red text below) to D6.24 (Journal 11, https://mmpgamers.com/support/asl/ASLRB_Errata_April_2021_A-K_W.pdf ] that makes it say "Any SW carried by a Bailing Out Rider is eliminated if the carrying unit breaks or is eliminated prior to or after Bail Out." I'd take that as guidance as to what happens if the rider SMC possessing a MMG drops the MMG, either with or without unloading: the MMG would be eliminated.

I don't think the rules say what happens to an unpossessed SW in a truck, e.g., a leader possessing a LMG is the only Passenger, and the leader is eliminated by a '1' Sniper Attack. It's not an AFV (D6.4 specifies AFV), nor a Carrier nor a halftrack.
 
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John Fedoriw

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See the 7th sentence of 6.4: "A SW may not be loaded onto or remain aboard an AFV without Passenger/Rider accompaniment [EXC: any halftrack or Carrier may retain any SW placed in it if those SW apply to that vehicle’s Passenger PP capacity]."
Damn...what I quoted above was from D6.5 not 6.4...argh....I hate looking at these long rules paragraphs...they all blur into one another after awhile LOL. Anyway I see that now - thanks Scott.

Bruce I apologize you are quite correct on all your points above.

Thanks again gentlemen.
 

Actionjick

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Firstly, thanks for the help Bruce.

Regarding this:

Thank you. That answers that quite definitively.


I have Russians with an MMG and several tanks that have to cross board 19 and secure a village in 6 turns. I plan to use riders and armored assault to cross the OG but don't want to be slowed down lugging the MMG along and don't want to leave it behind where it will not aid the attack. Because I cannot deploy as Russians and can't load it on a tank with a full squad the only unit that I have left to possess it as a rider is a leader.


Aha! I see. I agree with you on all points except the last one. A 50% chance of malfunction is better than abandoning the MMG prior to charging across the field. Better to bring it along and possibly destroy it than leave it behind.


I don't see that in D6.4. The last sentence of D6.4 says: "SW carried by a vehicle's Passenger PP capacity can be unloaded/Recovered only by Passengers of the same vehicle.". That doesn't specifically preclude leaving a SW on the vehicle. So I am thinking the leader, MMG nd tank drive across the field, the leader disembarks, later, if feasible, a HS or 2 leaders load on the tank and later unload with the MG. (I know this scenario is unlikely but it's better than abandoning the SW.) I will look further in the rules to see if I find where it states you can never leave an unpossessed SW on a vehicle but for now I respectfully disagree.

Anyway thanks again for your input.

John
Nice job thinking about outside the box options for your attack. Even if they don't pan out or aren't rules compatible it is an excellent mental exercise.
 

ScottRomanowski

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I have Russians with an MMG and several tanks that have to cross board 19 and secure a village in 6 turns. I plan to use riders and armored assault to cross the OG but don't want to be slowed down lugging the MMG along and don't want to leave it behind where it will not aid the attack.
I think you could keep the MMG up with the armored assaulting units. Start with a stack of leader, MMG/MMC, the MMC (only) Double Times, and the stack has 6 MF, as many as a MMC DTing by itself. If you use the trick of using two MMC, you could DT again in the next MPh.
 

John Fedoriw

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I think you could keep the MMG up with the armored assaulting units. Start with a stack of leader, MMG/MMC, the MMC (only) Double Times, and the stack has 6 MF, as many as a MMC DTing by itself. If you use the trick of using two MMC, you could DT again in the next MPh.
Yeah that's a good idea too. Thanks.
 

bprobst

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I don't think the rules say what happens to an unpossessed SW in a truck, e.g., a leader possessing a LMG is the only Passenger, and the leader is eliminated by a '1' Sniper Attack. It's not an AFV (D6.4 specifies AFV), nor a Carrier nor a halftrack.
Well, D6 terminology gets a little confused sometimes. For instance, not all halftracks are AFVs, but the rule permitting the retention of SW doesn't care if there's no armour, it only cares about the suspension. Which, IMO, is an odd distinction. And then you get weirdos like the Loyd Carrier, which is explicitly not a Carrier, but is certainly neither a ht nor a truck. I really don't understand the (general) rule prohibiting retention of unpossessed SW on a vehicle. It seems to (a) defy actual historical usage of many vehicle types and (b) is hardly something that can be easily exploited under the rules. What's the purpose of the rule, other than to be annoying? It feels like it's there to prohibit some stupid gameplay tactic, but I can't work out what that would be.

Also, you can't just write off D6.4 as being specifically applicable to AFVs, when large chunks of the rule are applicable to non-AFVs (per D6.7) and if you interpret the rule that rigorously, then there are no rules at all that address how you load or unload from vehicles like the Loyd Carrier! Try springing that on your opponent when he sees that sweet 11 PP capacity and actually tries making use of it. "Sorry, buddy, you can't get in. And if you're already in, you can't get out."
 

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I can see not allowing unpossessed SW using Rider PP (they'd fall off), but I agree, the rules interpretations need to be lenient in cases where there's something like a passenger compartment. You also get weird situations like the dm .50-cal HMG that must set up unpossessed in a Jeep in 191 Buchholz Station. I've had situations where a squad can stand around the jeep, but not recover the SW because they can't load. It's a Jeep, you should be able to just reach in!
 

bprobst

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You never have enough Russian leaders, but 2 SMC could shlepp the mmg on and off the tank.
How would they do that? Each SMC cannot individually portage more than 2PP, and while the second SMC can loan his IPC to improve the first SMC's IPC, that still leaves the first SMC with ... count them ... the capacity to carry 2PP. And even if you could somehow chain five SMCs to all contribute their IPC to the first guy (which you can't, so don't try), he is still restricted under the general prohibition: he cannot portage (i.e., move with) more than 2PP. No single or multiple combination of SMCs is ever going to move a 3PP (or heavier) SW anywhere. Not up the stairs, not into a gully, not over a bridge, and certainly not on or off of a vehicle of any type.
 

von Marwitz

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I've had situations where a squad can stand around the jeep, but not recover the SW because they can't load. It's a Jeep, you should be able to just reach in!
They are probably arguing beyond the time-scale of the scenario who must lug that ponderous beast around - and nobody wants to do it...

von Marwitz
 
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