Can a DC Hero Drop a DC?

Aaron Cleavin

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If a DC Hero is wounded on its First MF and can now not get to it's target, may it at the end of its first (or 2nd) MF drop the DC
to be used in later turns by other friendly units, rather than having it eliminated along with the DC hero at the end of the turn..

It seems this is possible but it appears to be a sleaze of the first order.
 

Binchois

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I would certainly not allow that :oops:
Not sure just how sleazy this is ("We just clipped your hero - I dare you to go pick up his DC!"). And I am really not sure what rule would deny it. DC Heroes are prohibited from further transfer and recovery, but nothing seems to prohibit dropping the DC.

I think I'd allow it as it probably needs an Errata (at least a Perry verdict) to overrule. Please send in the Q!
 

Mister T

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Not sure just how sleazy this is
I would say that the spirit of the DC hero rules demands that the life and death of the carrier and the bomb are closely tied together, especially in a Japanese context where missions have to be fulfilled to the end no matter what the outcome might be.

But of course a Q is always a good idea.
 

klasmalmstrom

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A DC Hero is conduction a Banzai Charge, and thus governed by the Human Wave rules..

Last sentence of A25.232 says:
"...In addition, it may perform non-MF-dependant actions as per D14.31. "

...and D14.31 says:
"...Actions that cost no MF/MP (EX: dropping a SW; changing CE/BU status) may be performed as normal during each Impulse. ..."

So there is certainly nothing in the Banzai/Human-Wave/Impulse movement that disallows it, and I see nothing in the DC Hero rules that disallows it.

G1.425 does end with:
"....The elimination of a DC Hero also eliminates his DC. "

Now whether it is still his DC after he has droppen can be disputed.

For the record, I think that he should not be able to drop it - once a DC Hero is created the DC is tied to the Hero, IMO.
 

von Marwitz

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I really like this 'out of the box thinking' of Aaron.
It is not trivial to come up with new ideas in a rules system that has been played for decades in countless games.

It could create some new tactical opportunities:
Create a DC Hero to soak up DFF, then drop the DC while one or two hexes from the target, enter the target hex to enforce Target Selection Limits and to possibly survive until the CCPh. Then have another unit move up, pick up the DC, and try again... (though I am not sure if it is allowed to drop/pick up SW multiple times in a MPh as it would theoretically enable to convey them for an unlimited number of hexes across the playing area).

While Klas might be correct in his conclusion that there is nothing in the rules to disallow a DC-Hero to drop the DC, I am convinced that a Perry Sez query would rule it out. And I would support disallowing it.

To create a DC Hero receives a special beneficial DRM due to having a DC at hand. It would be illogical, that such a DC Hero, possibly only having been created for having a DC to put to use on the basis of that DRM would drop it.

von Marwitz
 

Binchois

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....Then have another unit move up, pick up the DC, and try again... (though I am not sure if it is allowed to drop/pick up SW multiple times in a MPh as it would theoretically enable to convey them for an unlimited number of hexes across the playing area).

While Klas might be correct in his conclusion that there is nothing in the rules to disallow a DC-Hero to drop the DC, I am convinced that a Perry Sez query would rule it out. And I would support disallowing it.

von Marwitz
Portage chains are disallowed by A4.4:

...No item can be portaged more than once per phase except as allowed by combined Infantry and vehicle portage within a single phase​
And I do agree with all of the above - most likely an official ruling would go against Aaron's OP plan since dropping the DC does seem to flow against the DC Hero's "idiological feel."

Still, it doesn't seem improbable that a DC might survive the hero's demise. Besides, you once had a MMC with a DC, and after that crazy guy ran off with it, you now have it at least 40 meters away and in the LOF of the enemy (at best, unpossessed in some other unit's hex). It seems a generally dangerous method to deliver a parcel to your front-liners who will have to remain in enemy LOF for awhile longer before they can possibly make use of it. [Not to mention, your T-H Hero limit has been reduced, you risked losing the DC, and the creating-MMC couldn't have been that far away, anyway...]
 
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mgmasl

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NRBH but I think a bersek may not drop weapons.. I think DC-heros has to be considered as berseks to reflect this special caracteristics.. specially being japs.
 

jrv

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NRBH but I think a bersek may not drop weapons.. I think DC-heros has to be considered as berseks to reflect this special caracteristics.. specially being japs.
No, they are not berserk or considered berserk. They have to make a Banzai, but Banzai is not berserk.

JR
 

jrv

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G1.425 does end with:
"....The elimination of a DC Hero also eliminates his DC. "

Now whether it is still his DC after he has droppen can be disputed.

For the record, I think that he should not be able to drop it - once a DC Hero is created the DC is tied to the Hero, IMO.
While I would have no problem with disallowing the dropping of the DC, I think the DC is eliminated with the DC hero whether the DC hero possesses it or not, and that is sufficient for nearly all cases.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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While I would have no problem with disallowing the dropping of the DC, I think the DC is eliminated with the DC hero whether the DC hero possesses it or not, and that is sufficient for nearly all cases.
Yes, I can live with that as well.

I.e., G1.425 when it says: "....The elimination of a DC Hero also eliminates his DC.." - the DC, after given to him, is his - regardless of whether he drops it or not.
 

von Marwitz

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While I would have no problem with disallowing the dropping of the DC, I think the DC is eliminated with the DC hero whether the DC hero possesses it or not, and that is sufficient for nearly all cases.

JR
I had a case a while back where a DC-Hero charged an enemy position and got wounded in an ADJACENT Location. By the Wound (non-lethal), his MF were reduced and he could no longer reach the target hex. Back then, we thought about what would happen with the DC.

We played it that the DC-Hero would be eliminated at the end of his MPh and thus also the DC.

von Marwitz
 

Aaron Cleavin

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Yes, I can live with that as well.

I.e., G1.425 when it says: "....The elimination of a DC Hero also eliminates his DC.." - the DC, after given to him, is his - regardless of whether he drops it or not.
If you ain't carrying it, it ain't yours. Unfortunately ASL has no ownership laws only portage/possession laws.

Perry Sez will be submitted.
 
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ctewks

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If you ain't carrying it, it ain't yours. Unfortunately ASL has no possession laws only portage laws.

Perry Sez will be submitted.
4.43 POSSESSION: All SW/Gun counters belong to the first Personnel unit stacked beneath them. A SW/Gun must be possessed (i.e., on top of a Personnel unit) to be fired or portaged (or pushed). A unit can possess any number of SW/Guns. If a unit breaks and rallies in the same Location, possession of its own SW/Gun is always retained. An unbroken unit may drop possession of a SW/Gun at no MF cost during its APh, MPh, or at the start of a CCPh (11.21) in order to Withdraw from Melee.6 If a unit drops possession of a SW/Gun at the start of an allowed phase prior to expending-MF/advancing/Withdrawing, that SW/Gun is assumed to have been unpossessed (and hence not portaged by that unit) at the start of that phase. Units also drop SW/Guns before they surrender or are captured (20.4), and sometimes before they can rout (10.4). Unpossessed SW in a marsh, shallow or deep stream, or any Water Obstacle are removed from play. Q&A
 

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Now it is a neat way to create a THH. A MMC/DC creates a DC Hero with the -2 drm for the attempt, the DC Hero immediately drops the DC (hence not portaged) and off he goes! The MMC has not moved thus far & thus not portaged any SW so it recovers the DC and creates another DC Hero again applying the -2 drm for the attempt. Now the second "DC" Hero is off and hunting finally portaging the DC.
 

jrv

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Now it is a neat way to create a THH. A MMC/DC creates a DC Hero with the -2 drm for the attempt, the DC Hero immediately drops the DC (hence not portaged) and off he goes! The MMC has not moved thus far & thus not portaged any SW so it recovers the DC and creates another DC Hero again applying the -2 drm for the attempt. Now the second "DC" Hero is off and hunting finally portaging the DC.
G1.424 "A DC Hero … may not make a CC attack." So the DC Hero without a DC would get to the target hex and be unable to do anything. Its presence would prevent fire out of the target hex until it was eliminated. And I believe its DC would die with it.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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G1.424 "A DC Hero … may not make a CC attack." So the DC Hero without a DC would get to the target hex and be unable to do anything. Its presence would prevent fire out of the target hex until it was eliminated. And I believe its DC would die with it.

JR
Well, but the DC Hero without DC still being able to impose Target Selection Limits would still be a formidable asset. Especially with the Japanese that are crafty in HtH and might have a much easier time moving up to the "frozen" unit. Or a follow-up unit could even pick up the DC which the DC-Hero (immediately) dropped before spending his 1st MP and then place it on the enemy, where it would detonate even before the CCPh.

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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G1.424 "A DC Hero … may not make a CC attack." So the DC Hero without a DC would get to the target hex and be unable to do anything. Its presence would prevent fire out of the target hex until it was eliminated. And I believe its DC would die with it.

JR
Yes, but at the moment he drops the DC is he considered a DC Hero at all? And, as far as the rule goes it does not say the DC is eliminated because the "Hero" is eliminated, but it is eliminated BECAUSE he is a "DC" Hero.
 

jrv

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Yes, but at the moment he drops the DC is he considered a DC Hero at all? And, as far as the rule goes it does not say the DC is eliminated because the "Hero" is eliminated, but it is eliminated BECAUSE he is a "DC" Hero.
Sigh.

JR
 

Brian W

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The only instance this seems like a good idea is having the DC hero drop the DC in an ADJACENT/adjacent location/hex to a target, then have other infantry recover the DC and throw it in the AFPh (or detonate it in their own location to destroy a bridge or building?). Doesn't seem to help much, but it might happen. The DC is certainly removed when the DC Hero is removed, so holding longer than the end of the player turn is not possible.
 
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