C8.5 SMOKE in DFPh

[zgrose]

"Once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE during that PFPh/DFPh, no SMOKE may be fired during that PFPh/DFPh."

If my AFV First Fired a MG during the ATTACKER's MPh, is that AFV clear to fire SMOKE from the MA? Seems like so but triple checking.

 

[Michael R]

I say yes. I hoped to find a rule to specifically back up my yes, but I could not.

Edit: This almost does:

A.15 FIRST/FINAL FIRE: Even though Defensive First Fire occurs during the MPh and Defensive Final Fire usually occurs during the DFPh, qualifying units may fire in both without violating the general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per Player Turn (7.1).

EX: A 4-6-7 squad firing during the opponent's MPh as Defensive First Fire may still fire in its own DFPh at adjacent or same-hex units as Defensive Final Fire (provided it is not already marked with a Final Fire counter [EXC: FPF; 8.31]). An AFV firing its CMG as Defensive First Fire may still fire its MA in its DFPh; if it changed its CA to fire the CMG, the appropriate Case A DRM would still apply to its MA shot (D3.51).

 

[zgrose]

I guess my query is more about that particular unit firing Smoke "second" vs the general can I fire the MA at all which A.15 clearly covers. I could just be overthinking it though.

 

[jrv]

As quoted above, per A.15 units may fire in the DFPh if they had previously fired in the enemy MPh. Firing during the enemy MPh is not firing in the DFPh, however, so the unit may fire SMOKE in the DFPh "first" still.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

I say yes. I hoped to find a rule to specifically back up my yes, but I could not.

Edit: This almost does:

A.15 FIRST/FINAL FIRE: Even though Defensive First Fire occurs during the MPh and Defensive Final Fire usually occurs during the DFPh, qualifying units may fire in both without violating the general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per Player Turn (7.1).

EX: A 4-6-7 squad firing during the opponent's MPh as Defensive First Fire may still fire in its own DFPh at adjacent or same-hex units as Defensive Final Fire (provided it is not already marked with a Final Fire counter [EXC: FPF; 8.31]). An AFV firing its CMG as Defensive First Fire may still fire its MA in its DFPh; if it changed its CA to fire the CMG, the appropriate Case A DRM would still apply to its MA shot (D3.51).

Although one would assume you could fire a non-SMOKE weapon system first using D1F by checking the ASOP steps 3.36D, there is a Q& A that would support the position that SMOKE must be fired 1st prior to any other shots whether it occurs as D1F or during the DFPh as stated in C8.5 as noted by the OP (See also A.15).

 

[semenza]

Although one would assume you could fire a non-SMOKE weapon system first using D1F by checking the ASOP steps 3.36D, there is a Q& A that would support the position that SMOKE must be fired 1st prior to any other shots whether it occurs as D1F or during the DFPh as stated in C8.5 as noted by the OP (See also A.15).
View attachment 4478

That Q/A is asking if WP (Smoke) can be fired in Defensive First Fire. It isn't coupling it with Defensive Fire Phase. In other words (based on the answer to the Q/A being yes) smoke can be fired as Defensive First Fire in the opponents Mph, and also in Defensive Fire Phase, but in both cases it has to be fired first.

Seth

 

[Eagle4ty]

That Q/A is asking if WP (Smoke) can be fired in Defensive First Fire. It isn't coupling it with Defensive Fire Phase. In other words (based on the answer to the Q/A being yes) smoke can be fired as Defensive First Fire in the opponents Mph, and also in Defensive Fire Phase, but in both cases it has to be fired first.

Seth

Exactly what I stated. For the purpose of determining when SMOKE should be fired first, they are considered 2 independent phases. However, this does not seem to be born out if one reads the firing steps of the ASOP or the rules alone, but a Q&A clarifies any ambiguities (most of the time).

 

[Russ Isaia]

Exactly what I stated. For the purpose of determining when SMOKE should be fired first, they are considered 2 independent phases. However, this does not seem to be born out if one reads the firing steps of the ASOP or the rules alone, but a Q&A clarifies any ambiguities (most of the time).

Not sure how a Q&A about WP can clarify when SMOKE can be fired given that C8.6 is explicit that "Unlike SMOKE, WP may be fired by ordnance "during . . . any friendly fire phase -- not just the PFPh/DFPh".

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not sure how a Q&A about WP can clarify when SMOKE can be fired given that C8.6 is explicit that "Unlike SMOKE, WP may be fired by ordnance "during . . . any friendly fire phase -- not just the PFPh/DFPh".

The Q&A clarifies (although I think it actually changes the rules) as fire during the enemy's MPh (i.e., as defensive first fire) is not during a fire phase.

 

[jrv]

The Q&A clarifies (although I think it actually changes the rules) as fire during the enemy's MPh (i.e., as defensive first fire) is not during a fire phase.

The fire phases are listed in the index, and the MPh is not one of the listed phases. Is there another place where it is listed?

edit: the Q&A allows fire of WP during the enemy MPh, which I agree is not in line with the index.

JR

 

[Russ Isaia]

The Q&A clarifies (although I think it actually changes the rules) as fire during the enemy's MPh (i.e., as defensive first fire) is not during a fire phase.

Whatever it is clarifying, or changing, it does not seem to be answering the original answer, so --

1. Can SMOKE be fired as the first fire against a moving unit in the enemy's MPh?
2. Can SMOKE be fired as the first fire in the firer's DFPh, if SMOKE was fired in the preceding MPh?

In short, how closely connected are DFF and the DFPh?

 

[Pedro Santos]

isn't the idea that you shouldn't be able to fire hard stuff and then hide behind smoke immediately? if you can fire normally in D1F and then fire smoke at beginning of DFPh to shield from return fire in AFPh that negates this.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Whatever it is clarifying, or changing, it does not seem to be answering the original answer, so --

1. Can SMOKE be fired as the first fire against a moving unit in the enemy's MPh?

Not SMOKE - only WP, and (per the Q&A) only before any non-WP Defensive First Fire has taken place.

2. Can SMOKE be fired as the first fire in the firer's DFPh, if SMOKE was fired in the preceding MPh?

Yes.

In short, how closely connected are DFF and the DFPh?

In this regard - not at all - they are two different phases.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Not SMOKE - only WP, and (per the Q&A) only before any non-WP Defensive First Fire has taken place.

Yes.

hmmm, the rule (C8.6) states that WP fired as DFF has to precede any non-WP DFF (the parenthetical beginning on line 2). What the Q&A "clarifies" is that the enemy's MPh is a "friendly fire phase" for purposes of C8.6. But as to your answers, no basis to doubt, as usual.

 

[Russ Isaia]

isn't the idea that you shouldn't be able to fire hard stuff and then hide behind smoke immediately? if you can fire normally in D1F and then fire smoke at beginning of DFPh to shield from return fire in AFPh that negates this.

What prevents you from doing that? That is, firing AP or HE as DFF and then firing SMOKE at the beginning of the DFPh (though it may have to be a different Gun firing). C8.5 only prevents firing SMOKE once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE "during that PFPh/DFPh."

 

[Eagle4ty]

Not SMOKE - only WP, ...

Yes.


In this regard - not at all - they are two different phases.

Not necessarily so as ASOP 3.36D clearly allows placing Smoke from a Smoke producing weapon to be placed during the D1F of the opponents MPh (13.58 SMOKE: A MOL-Projector hit creates a white Dispersed Smoke counter as per 8.52.). Also, DEFENDER'S vehicles may attempt the use of Smoke as well if capable of sD, sM, sP or crew Smoke as appropriate (D13.2). If one applies COWTRA, it seems as if SMOKE can certainly be utilized by the DEFENDER during his opponent's MPh (as it is clearly not disallowed), what is less clear is the timing aspect of the Smoke placement during this phase, but certainly hinted at by the Q&A provided.

I do agree that for fire purposes, fire conducted uring the opponent's MPh and fire conducted during the DFPh are being conducted during two separate phases.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

hmmm, the rule (C8.6) states that WP fired as DFF has to precede any non-WP DFF (the parenthetical beginning on line 2). What the Q&A "clarifies" is that the enemy's MPh is a "friendly fire phase" for purposes of C8.6. But as to your answers, no basis to doubt, as usual.

What should have been done (to make this "change" more official) - IMO - is that errata should have been issued for C8.6 - adding something like what A23.6 says: "any friendly fire phase (or Defensive First Fire)".

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not necessarily so as ASOP 3.36D clearly allows placing Smoke from a Smoke producing weapon to be placed during the D1F of the opponents MPh (13.58 SMOKE: A MOL-Projector hit creates a white Dispersed Smoke counter as per 8.52.). Also, DEFENDER'S vehicles may attempt the use of Smoke as well if capable of sD, sM, sP or crew Smoke as appropriate (D13.2). If one applies COWTRA, it seems as if SMOKE can certainly be utilized by the DEFENDER during his opponent's MPh (as it is clearly not disallowed), what is less clear is the timing aspect of the Smoke placement during this phase, but certainly hinted at by the Q&A provided.

I do agree that for fire purposes, fire conducted uring the opponent's MPh and fire conducted during the DFPh are being conducted during two separate phases.

I don't consider using a vehicular Smoke Dispenser as "firing" Smoke though. E.g., one can use that after other DFF attacks - which incidentally is true for a MOL-P as well.

 

[jrv]

There are a couple Q&A that say that "firing" a smoke dispenser is not an attack, and that "firing" a smoke dispenser is not meant to be the same as "firing" a weapon:

C2.2401, D13.3 & C5.35 Is the fact that a Smoke Dispenser attempt is described as “firing” sufficient to permit the opponent's declaration of a Gun Duel (C2.2401, C5.33) vs. that usage attempt, assuming that the other conditions for a Gun Duel are met?
A. No. [Letter265]

D13.2 When making a smoke dispenser usage attempt in the opponent's MPh as if intervening with Defensive First Fire, must one place a First Fire counter?
A. No. [Compil6]

A smoke dispenser does not meet the definition for a weapon [index]. That D13.3 uses the term "fire" is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem likely to me that smoke dispenser usage is meant to be the same as "fire" in C8.5.

JR

 

[Pedro Santos]

What prevents you from doing that? That is, firing AP or HE as DFF and then firing SMOKE at the beginning of the DFPh (though it may have to be a different Gun firing). C8.5 only prevents firing SMOKE once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE "during that PFPh/DFPh."

yes, I have always taken DFF to be part of DFPh so that you couldn't fire in former and then lay smoke in latter. stand corrected