C3.33 Area Target Type and Mortars

[apbills]

A3.33 say in part - [EXC: a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's, if one is being used; 9.3) LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit (i.e., that received the highest net TH DRM for that shot)].

During WO one of my opponents claimed they could fire at my concealed, out of LOS units in a gully. I quickly read this and agreed, but then it was around 1am. I am looking at this now and I don't think that is correct. There were no non-hidden enemy units in LOS in the hex. SImply firing at a gully as ranging fire (so to speak) is all well and good in reality, but in ASL it is pretty effective given you know exactly what hex the guys are in. This would mean that 120mm mortar could fire at the 2nd level of a building (with no units in LOS) just to hit the guys in the ground level that the game allows him to know are there.

Is this correct? Was I sharked? They took 2 critical hits during their trip down the gully, one of which KIAd a squad.

It doesn't sys "hypothetical unit", which is used in some places of the rulebook. DOn't know, but searched the :hail: Perry sez and found nothing. Any opinions on this?

 

[Brian W]

Was I sharked?

Sharked is such a harsh word. You were mutually confused by an obscure rule. With sharp pointy teeth

 

[Georgii2222]

A3.33 say in part - [EXC: a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's, if one is being used; 9.3) LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit (i.e., that received the highest net TH DRM for that shot)].

During WO one of my opponents claimed they could fire at my concealed, out of LOS units in a gully. I quickly read this and agreed, but then it was around 1am. I am looking at this now and I don't think that is correct. There were no non-hidden enemy units in LOS in the hex. SImply firing at a gully as ranging fire (so to speak) is all well and good in reality, but in ASL it is pretty effective given you know exactly what hex the guys are in. This would mean that 120mm mortar could fire at the 2nd level of a building (with no units in LOS) just to hit the guys in the ground level that the game allows him to know are there.

Is this correct? Was I sharked? They took 2 critical hits during their trip down the gully, one of which KIAd a squad.

It doesn't sys "hypothetical unit", which is used in some places of the rulebook. DOn't know, but searched the :hail: Perry sez and found nothing. Any opinions on this?

Hmmmm.. Don't see why not. The example even has a similar deal:

'EX: A German 50mm mortar at level 0 Prep Fires at a woods-gully hex that contains two enemy squads (one concealed and one Known) in Crest status at level 0 and a third IN the gully. If its TH DR is low enough to hit the concealed squad it will also hit the other two squads, resulting (barring a CH) in a 2-FP attack vs all three enemy units resolved with one IFT DR (and a -1 DRM due to Air Bursts, but with no Crest TEM).'

Then C3.41 says:

"The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such. [EXC: The Infantry Target Type (3.32) attacks a specific Location rather than an entire hex, and cannot be used to attack an AFV]....."

So I'd say this is legal, unless I'm missing a rule somewhere.

 

[apbills]

I see nothing wrong with attacking an empty hex, or even a hex with a unit that is out of LOS. The question is, what are the rules for hitting that out fo LOS target. If there is no non-hidden enemy target in the hex, how can you hit anyone that is out of LOS?


The interpretation used was if you can hit the hardest to hit non-hidden hypothetical unit. If this is so, it makes mortars (at least medium and up) far more effective in the city than I thought.

 

[Georgii2222]

I see nothing wrong with attacking an empty hex, or even a hex with a unit that is out of LOS. The question is, what are the rules for hitting that out fo LOS target. If there is no non-hidden enemy target in the hex, how can you hit anyone that is out of LOS?


The interpretation used was if you can hit the hardest to hit non-hidden hypothetical unit. If this is so, it makes mortars (at least medium and up) far more effective in the city than I thought.

That sounds right to me. It would just be a standard TH roll.... assuming no hindrances, etc., I would say a 7, depending on range

The only other thing I can think of is:

"19.2 A gully is usually a level -1 Depression hex (A6.3), although it is always a -1 level Depression; i.e., a unit IN it is one level lower than it would be if the gully were not present. A unit IN a gully cannot see any other Depression hex unless it is adjacent and connected by a Depression hexside, or the LOS can be drawn to another gully hex without leaving the combination brown, dark green background. See 19.5 for LOS to a gully that crosses a Crest Line."

This indicates to me that since the gully is a level -1 hex, that no LOS would exist to a location in the hex, anyway, assuming the firer is at level 0. I see no indication in the 'streams & crest status' rules that allude to there being another location in the hex just because infantry could claim crest status.

Just my 2 bits.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I presume these rules' extracts can help :

C 3.4 extract :
" Not all enemy (and Melee) potential targets in a hex/Location are always hit/affected, because some of them might be immune due to qualifying for TH/Effects DRM not applicable to others, being out of the firer's LOS , ..."

C 3.33 extract :
"All (including friendly) non-Aerial units in the target hex can be hit (even by WP), except for those immune as per 3.4 [EXC: a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's, if one is being used; 9.3) LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit (i.e., that received the highest net TH DRM for that shot)]. "

So this seems to indicate that you can hit units out of LOS at the condition there are other, non hidden, targets in the hex... and that you managed to hit the hardest one to hit.

 

[zgrose]

I guess that would mean MTR could never reveal HIP units (when no other units are in the hex) since the firer never has LOS to the HIP unit. Best you could hope for with Area Target Type fire into an "empty" hex is Acquisition.

Somehow that seems wrong.

(edit)

Footnote 7 supports that the designers acknowledge that this is a less than ideal situation but is in place to restore some FoW elements.

Now I need to hunt down and see if I can fire with Direct Fire into empty hexes to flush out HIP units. My world is spinning around!

 

[Robin Reeve]

I guess that would mean MTR could never reveal HIP units (when no other units are in the hex) since the firer never has LOS to the HIP unit. Best you could hope for with Area Target Type fire into an "empty" hex is Acquisition.

Not exactly.
The HIP unit can be in your LOS, though you do not see it.
What the rule seems to prohibit, is to fire at units the "omniscient player" knows they exist, though they are out of LOS of the cardboard firer...

 

[zgrose]

Whew. I guess that is what C3.41 is trying to say.

Speaking of which, what exactly is the point of this long sentence:

The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such.

Isn't that a long way of saying you can attack any hex, regardless of its type of contents?

 

[Robin Reeve]

I'd say you could attack a hex using Area Fire, even if the only units are out of LOS.
But the rules seems to say you won't affect these units.
Nevertheless, you'd leave an acquisition counter and - perhaps... - create a Flame or Rubble...

 

[apbills]

After looking at the suggestions here, and some more research, I have come to some conclusions, and have submitted a question to :hail: Perry.

1) A mortar should not be able to fire at a gully hex if the only targets in the hex are IN the Gully. He would have no LOS to any Location in the hex. If there were units in Crest status, they would be at a level +1 to the IN protion fo the hex and would then allow fire at the hex, including indirect fire hitting any units IN the gully.

This is a bit strange, but I think consistant with the LOS, Gully and fire rules.

2) A mortar (and any other unit for that matter) can fire at any hex if he has LOS to a Location in that hex. I submitted my question in regards to hitting units in the hex, out of LOS of the mortar, with no non-hidden unit in the LOS of the mortar. I am reading teh C3.33 rule fiarly strictly on this and will wait and see what the answer is from :hail: Perry.

[EXC: a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's, if one is being used; 9.3) LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit (i.e., that received the highest net TH DRM for that shot)].

My arguement is that if there is no non-hidden target in the mortars LOS, he can not hit it. "if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target" is the part I am focusing on (maybe wrongly). If you suppose a a hypothetical unit in the hex, it would need to be hidden, therefore it would not cause other non-in-LOS units to be hit. If that was not the case, I would think the rule would need to be worded such that either 1) it hit the hardest to hit non-hidden enemy unit in the hex, or 2) it hit a hypothetical hidden unit in the hex. The footnote seems to support my conclusion.

"The prohibition against allowing Area Target Fire to affect units out of the firer's LOS is less realistic for mortars than for Direct Fire Guns, but effectively keeps them from firing at units they could not see in reality (the Omniscient Player syndrome) - while still allowing them to fire at an upper building level in order to acquire it. "

Thanks to the guys who pointed out the basic LOS issue (no Location in LOS) and to remind me to look at the footnote.

 

[Jazz]

I'd say you could attack a hex using Area Fire, even if the only units are out of LOS.
But the rules seems to say you won't affect these units.
Nevertheless, you'd leave an acquisition counter and - perhaps... - create a Flame or Rubble...

Or leave SMOKE, which is the way I've seen this get used.

Classic situation: You have a death star on level 0 of a multi level building. You have something that can fire smoke that has LOS to an upper level but not level 0 (and hence is immune to fire from the death star). You can put smoke on the death star without evben seeing it. :devil:

Jazz

 

[Sparafucil3]

I had this happen to me too. A Brit small mortar with no LOS to my location but can see the upper levels of my hex. Guy says what the heck, rolls a 1,1 on the area fire to hit roll. Now he can not see anyone in the hex but just rolled a CH. He says "It's just a Fog of War thing. Must have went through a hole in the floor" and rolls random selection which Yahtzees. Wipes out 2 squads and my HMG. Still does not feel right to me. I am sure it was wrong but how to prove it. -- jim

 

[Jazz]

I had this happen to me too. A Brit small mortar with no LOS to my location but can see the upper levels of my hex. Guy says what the heck, rolls a 1,1 on the area fire to hit roll. Now he can not see anyone in the hex but just rolled a CH. He says "It's just a Fog of War thing. Must have went through a hole in the floor" and rolls random selection which Yahtzees. Wipes out 2 squads and my HMG. Still does not feel right to me. I am sure it was wrong but how to prove it. -- jim

Actually, I don't think he could affect the guys he couldn't see...(unless there was another unit in LOS that it would have hit it seems from the rules quoted in this thread, see the message from Robin that makes an exact quote).

But you could put smoke on the hex to level 0 even if there were no unit in LOS.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Actually, I don't think he could affect the guys he couldn't see...(unless there was another unit in LOS that it would have hit it seems from the rules quoted in this thread, see the message from Robin that makes an exact quote).

But you could put smoke on the hex to level 0 even if there were no unit in LOS.

Thanks Jazz (and Robin). Seems that is the ruling I missed. Still beat the guy anyway. It was just harder :devious: -- jim